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Fed appeal question

Colinh

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Colinh

Colinh

Posted
Posted

I'm stumped on this one, between A and B

If any situation arises that could lead to an appeal by the defense on the last play of the game, the appeal must be made:
  • a.
    • While all umpires are on the field.
  • b.
    • While an umpire is on the field.
  • c.
    • Before the infielders cross the foul lines.
  • d.
    • Before the official scorekeeper declares the game over.
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MadMax
MadMax

In an adjacent topic, this is why many of us (umpires) get very upset with partners / colleagues who linger on the field and ham it up, or glad-hand’ing, or making the rounds campaigning for mayor. 

lawump
lawump

Or move to South Carolina! 😳😂😳😂

johnnyg08
johnnyg08

Or run 150 feet down the 1BL from C to get your water jug. 

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SH0102

SH0102

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, Colinh said:

I'm stumped on this one, between A and B

If any situation arises that could lead to an appeal by the defense on the last play of the game, the appeal must be made:
  • a.
    • While all umpires are on the field.
  • b.
    • While an umpire is on the field.
  • c.
    • Before the infielders cross the foul lines.
  • d.
    • Before the official scorekeeper declares the game over.

.

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noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

There is, or was, a case play to the effect that "at the end of the game, one umpire leaves the field while the other stops to get a drink of water.  The defense then appeals."  That should help you answer the question.

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beerguy55

beerguy55

Posted
Posted

Isn't C ALWAYS true...meaning the answer would/should be C AND A/B?

That is, the end of a game is also the end of a half-inning, so even if the umps are still both around if the infielders have left fair territory there can be no appeal??  Or does that requirement disappear because it's the end of game?

I always figured both conditions had to be met.

I believe the rule (if going by the letter) says "when the umpires leave the field." (grammatically, "all" is implied)

 

I know for OBR, there was one particular MLB game in 1989 where two of the umpires were in the tunnel when the appeal on the winning run was made, and the appeal was granted.

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Coach Carl

Coach Carl

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Isn't C ALWAYS true...meaning the answer would/should be C AND A/B?

That is, the end of a game is also the end of a half-inning, so even if the umps are still both around if the infielders have left fair territory there can be no appeal??  Or does that requirement disappear because it's the end of game?

I always figured both conditions had to be met.

I believe the rule (if going by the letter) says "when the umpires leave the field." (grammatically, "all" is implied)

 

I know for OBR, there was one particular MLB game in 1989 where two of the umpires were in the tunnel when the appeal on the winning run was made, and the appeal was granted.

I have the 2018 version of the rules and it uses "an".  (8-2-6-j)  

I also thought C was applicable as well (for the same reasons you note) and  FWIW the 2018 rules uses "pitcher and all infielders".  (8-2 penalty note on Arts. 1-5)

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beerguy55

beerguy55

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

have the 2018 version of the rules and it uses "an".  (8-2-6-j)  

Yes, but in a different context...ie. when they can vs when they cannot.

the appeal must be made while an umpire is still on the field of play.

In short, both wordings same the same thing - as long as there is at least one umpire on the field they can appeal....when ALL the umpires leave, they cannot.

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MadMax

MadMax

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, noumpere said:

at the end of the game, one umpire leaves the field while the other stops to get a drink of water. 

In an adjacent topic, this is why many of us (umpires) get very upset with partners / colleagues who linger on the field and ham it up, or glad-hand’ing, or making the rounds campaigning for mayor. 

Get. Off. The. FIELD!! 

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lawump

lawump

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, MadMax said:

In an adjacent topic, this is why many of us (umpires) get very upset with partners / colleagues who linger on the field and ham it up, or glad-hand’ing, or making the rounds campaigning for mayor. 

Get. Off. The. FIELD!! 

Or move to South Carolina! 😳😂😳😂

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johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted
On 2/7/2025 at 2:53 PM, MadMax said:

In an adjacent topic, this is why many of us (umpires) get very upset with partners / colleagues who linger on the field and ham it up, or glad-hand’ing, or making the rounds campaigning for mayor. 

Get. Off. The. FIELD!! 

Or run 150 feet down the 1BL from C to get your water jug. 

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beerguy55

beerguy55

Posted
Posted

I'd like to circle back to my original question.

 

Isn't the answer B and C?  Don't both conditions have to be met?   The end of the game is, after all, the end of a half inning.

 

It seems silly that a team could not only leave the infield, but all proceed to their dugout to pack their gear, and upon noticing a few minutes later that an umpire is still lingering on the field, for whatever reason, and then shout "Mr. Umpire, the runner left early!"  And then grant that appeal, as half the winning team is making their way to the parking lot...

It not only opens the door to stupidity...it opens it to shenanigans.

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jimurrayalterego

jimurrayalterego

Posted
Posted
51 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'd like to circle back to my original question.

 

Isn't the answer B and C?  Don't both conditions have to be met?   The end of the game is, after all, the end of a half inning.

 

It seems silly that a team could not only leave the infield, but all proceed to their dugout to pack their gear, and upon noticing a few minutes later that an umpire is still lingering on the field, for whatever reason, and then shout "Mr. Umpire, the runner left early!"  And then grant that appeal, as half the winning team is making their way to the parking lot...

It not only opens the door to stupidity...it opens it to shenanigans.

FED specifies the last play of the game for umpires leaving the field. A walkoff might not be the end of the inning. I would say your “stupidity” and “shenanigans” are improbable but it is FED so I won’t. 

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MadMax

MadMax

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Isn't the answer B and C?  Don't both conditions have to be met?   The end of the game is, after all, the end of a half inning.

Not so for NFHS. Because of the employment of dead-ball appeals, the locations / presence of any (in)fielders is irrelevant. Conceivably, a defensive team can leave the field, and the DTHC can approach the/an umpire, and conduct an appeal, such as for a “fourth out”, or a missed touch negating a run, et. al. 

The rule (regarding infielders’ presence) makes sense for professionals, and I’ll concede for competitive college ball, but amateur ball? My opinion is to treat it as a dead-ball appeal.  
However, to conduct said dead-ball appeal, an umpire has to be present on the field (within the fence). 

Hence, why “Get off the field!” is so important. 

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The Man in Blue

The Man in Blue

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I'd like to circle back to my original question.

 

Isn't the answer B and C?  Don't both conditions have to be met?   The end of the game is, after all, the end of a half inning.

 

It seems silly that a team could not only leave the infield, but all proceed to their dugout to pack their gear, and upon noticing a few minutes later that an umpire is still lingering on the field, for whatever reason, and then shout "Mr. Umpire, the runner left early!"  And then grant that appeal, as half the winning team is making their way to the parking lot...

It not only opens the door to stupidity...it opens it to shenanigans.

 

5wLeFh.gif

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Coach Carl

Coach Carl

Posted
Posted
23 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

A walkoff might not be the end of the inning.

Rule 2

SECTION 20 INNINGS

ART. 2 . . . A half-inning is the interval during which one team is on offense (batting) and the other is on defense (fielding). A half-inning ends when there is a third out or when, in the last inning, the winning run is scored. In either case, if there is a delayed out declared by the umpire for a baserunning infraction, a possible fourth out may be recognized (9-1- 1d, e).

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jimurrayalterego

jimurrayalterego

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Coach Carl said:

Rule 2

SECTION 20 INNINGS

ART. 2 . . . A half-inning is the interval during which one team is on offense (batting) and the other is on defense (fielding). A half-inning ends when there is a third out or when, in the last inning, the winning run is scored. In either case, if there is a delayed out declared by the umpire for a baserunning infraction, a possible fourth out may be recognized (9-1- 1d, e).

Good catch. I think we still would only require 8-2 "Penalty (Arts.  1-5).......or (4) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpire(s) leave the field of play" since they say "or". And "end of game" is specified also in 8-2-6-j.

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beerguy55

beerguy55

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Good catch. I think we still would only require 8-2 "Penalty (Arts.  1-5).......or (4) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpire(s) leave the field of play" since they say "or". And "end of game" is specified also in 8-2-6-j.

Perhaps, but I would posit that the "or" means it's inclusive to the definition of what constitutes the end of a half inning, and therefore the end-of-half-inning rules/conditions still apply (I'd also say, logically, that also extends to half-innings that end due to a run limit rule, whether for per inning limits, or the game score differential). That is, the end of game rules complement, not replace, the inning rules.

Practically speaking, the need for both conditions at the end of the game makes sense.  Be it a defensive team that decides to go have a team meeting in the outfield and never crossing the foul lines, or an umpire who decides to linger and socialize, you can't have just one of those actions open the door for an appeal, conceivably after the winning team has left the park.

If the entire defense leaves fair territory and lines up for end-of-game handshakes, that should end it, even if the umpires are still around.  If the umpires gtfo of there, that should end it, even if the defense is still on the infield in stunned silence at their loss.

On 2/10/2025 at 8:29 AM, MadMax said:

Not so for NFHS. Because of the employment of dead-ball appeals, the locations / presence of any (in)fielders is irrelevant. Conceivably, a defensive team can leave the field, and the DTHC can approach the/an umpire, and conduct an appeal, such as for a “fourth out”, or a missed touch negating a run, et. al. 

This argument could be made for any inning, not just the last.  We set that condition in all other innings because we need a reasonable demarcation point to say "too late, move along".  There's no reason to not have the same delineation in the last inning, regardless of where the umpire is located.  The umpires leaving simply provides an additional and necessary endpoint in case the losing defense decides to not leave the field, for any number of reasons.

 

My $0.02.  I'm on no committee of authority....but if I was...

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BigBlue4u

BigBlue4u

Posted
Posted
On 2/11/2025 at 10:58 AM, beerguy55 said:

If the entire defense leaves fair territory and lines up for end-of-game handshakes, that should end it, even if the umpires are still around.  If the umpires gtfo of there, that should end it, even if the defense is still on the infield in stunned silence at their loss.

Look at it this way.  Some teams may gather in the outfield after a game.  The umpires will always (or should) leave the field after the game.

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DWDIII

DWDIII

Posted
Posted

So gotta be A. Right?

8-2-5 (4) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be until the umpire(s) leave the field of play 

No, strike that it’s B!

8-2-6 j. The appeal must be made while an umpire is still on the field of play 

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beerguy55

beerguy55

Posted
Posted
On 2/13/2025 at 11:27 AM, BigBlue4u said:

Look at it this way.  Some teams may gather in the outfield after a game.  The umpires will always (or should) leave the field after the game.

This is a little silly.  All players and all umpires will EVENTUALLY leave...nobody is sleeping on the field overnight.

In fact, I'd say it's more likely that the players will leave the infield before the umpires leave, simply because almost all games end with a handshake at home plate, which invariably has all players from both teams in foul territory.

I'll give you a real stupid example that could actually happen.   

It's a tournament...schedule is running behind, and at least one of the umpires in this game is officiating the next game, which starts in about five minutes.   Both teams leave the field, but one umpire never does.   The next two teams are warming up.    Then the coach from the previous game comes back and says "Mr. Umpire, the runner on third left early".

Hell, coach might even know this because he had a friendly chat with the other umpire who left.

Doesn't really matter - it would be pretty stupid for the remaining ump to grant that appeal.  But he can.  Because he never left the field.  I'd find it even funnier if the next game had actually started.

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