Half swing/check swing

[StrasburgUmp80136]

When does a half swing/check swing become a strike? I've seen a couple of different answers & am curious. Is it when the barrel head clears the front hip or front of the plate or crosses the foul line? 

[maven]

17 hours ago, StrasburgUmp80136 said:

When does a half swing/check swing become a strike? I've seen a couple of different answers & am curious. Is it when the barrel head clears the front hip or front of the plate or crosses the foul line? 

No rule code defines a check/half swing. NCAA, I think, has a guideline involving the front plane of the plate, but that's only a guideline.

So, the answer is: by rule, a check swing is a strike when it constitutes an offer. That's a judgment call. 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Actually, NCAA does define it:

And NFHS explicitly addresses it. It is technically a guideline as noted above but covering it vs OBR silence tells you something.

The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter's 'half swing' is such as to be called a strike. As an aid in deciding, the umpire may note whether the swing carried the barrel of the bat past the body of the batter, but final decision is based on whether the batter actually struck at the ball.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Actually, NCAA does define it:

NCAA defines it more for the coaches to coach than for the umpires to umpire. 

We must remember, the coaches more directly influence the rules (and their vernacular) than either of the other core rulesets. Rules are termed and phrased in such a manner so as not only direct umpires on what/how to adjudicate a rule, but also well-defined (as possible) concepts that a coach (head, pitching, hitting, etc.) can convey and coach their players upon. 
NCAA Rules strives to remove as much ambiguity and interpretation out of its rules as possible. 

So, if a college hitting coach is working with one of his players on the player’s swing, he can coach him about loading, and putting his hands into the swing path, and provided he doesn’t get to “here”, if he holds off to “here”, then he “shouldn’t”  be called for a swing attempt. 

41 minutes ago, Velho said:

And NFHS explicitly addresses it… 

“The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter's 'half swing'”… 

NFHS tries to walk the path of “education” vis-á-vis what NCAA’s goals are, but they have a substantial millstone weighing down and thwarting that effort – they deify the UIC/PU, and anoint him with “final say” and authority on a number of things, among them check swings, and whether or not to dismiss or enact a check swing appeal. 

In my opinion, this is way too complicated. Simplify it – if it looks like he made an attempt and you are uncertain and/or the defense (coach, catcher) appeals, enact the check swing appeal. It does not erode or erase your authority! 

[flyingron]

The part that says SHALL (once the barrel goes past the plane) obligates a strike call, but the wording doesn't preclude ones that don't go that far from being considered a strike.

[beerguy55]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:51 PM, StrasburgUmp80136 said:

Thank you MadMax for the warm welcome. While I like this answer, it leads me to another, albeit similar question. At what point does the attempt stop being an attempt? As a coach, I teach my players to have a YES YES YES (NO) approach to hitting. From what you posted, should I as an umpire interpret that as long as the attempt stops before the pitch crosses the plate, the hitter is "good?"

The batter at almost all levels must have the yes yes yes (no) approach to hitting...it's a math problem and there's simply no time to hit the ball if you decide to start your swing when you like the pitch.  You MUST decide to stop your swing when you don't like the pitch.

In that respect, there is ALWAYS an initial attempt to swing, and the ump's job is simply to determine if you changed your mind "in time" - and that's purely a judgment call.  

We're left with taking the Potter Stewart approach to determining a swing; to paraphrase, "I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it".

[ross34]

On 8/25/2024 at 9:47 AM, maven said:

No rule code defines a check/half swing. NCAA, I think, has a guideline involving the front plane of the plate, but that's only a guideline.

So, the answer is: by rule, a check swing is a strike when it constitutes an offer. That's a judgment call. 

section 39 college rule book. when the barrel of the bat breaks the front hip. yes. there definitely is an answer to the rule. You know it all high school guys crack me up. 🤣 

[grayhawk]

40 minutes ago, ross34 said:

section 39 college rule book. when the barrel of the bat breaks the front hip. yes. there definitely is an answer to the rule. You know it all high school guys crack me up. 🤣 

 

[Kevin_K]

38 minutes ago, Velho said:

So this is outdated?

I see what you did there

[The Man in Blue]

9 hours ago, Velho said:

So this is outdated?

 

[The Man in Blue]

9 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Does this mean, in NCAA (not that I ever expect to see a batter do this at this level), that a batter who squares to bunt and stays perfectly still (ie. doesn't pull back, but doesn't 'offer') shall have a strike called?

I never looked this up in NCAA Baseball, but USA Softball has that immensely ignorant rule that the batter must move the bat towards the ball, but is excused if they just hold it out there blocking a portion of the strike zone.

More than once I had a version of this conversation:

[Batter puts the bat out in a bunt position while a runner is stealing.]

Me: [signals strike while pointing to the batter]

Coach: "Did you just call that a strike because she had the bat out there?"

Me: "Yes I did."

Coach: "But she didn't attempt to bunt it!"

Me: "She didn't?"

Coach: "No!"

Me: "If it wasn't a bunt attempt, why was the bat out there?  The only other reason I know of would be an attempt to interfere with the catcher.  Would you prefer I call interference on her while the runner was stealing?"

Coach: "It was a bunt attempt."

[834k3r]

On 9/5/2024 at 7:21 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

Great movie.

"Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'."

[MadMax]

3 minutes ago, StrasburgUmp80136 said:

When does a half swing/check swing become a strike?

I read on your introductory post (welcome, BTW) that you coached 4 sons thru their baseball development. 
Well, you’re not unique in your quest… coaches at all levels – from Pro (capital P) on down to LL – have been trying to pin us (umpires) to concretely defining what constitutes a swing such that a check swing (appeal) is deemed a swing, and thus, a strike. 

Here’s what Charlie Reliford, the MLBU who is the “official” Rules Interpreter for MLB had to say on the subject to a class of umpires at a MLBU Camp… 

“All this nonsense about the hip, or the wrists, or breaking some imaginary plane perpendicular to the plate… forget about it. If you (as a BU) have it as an attempt to strike at the ball, it is. If you don’t, you don’t.” 

Trust me, I’ve worked every level of baseball, short of D-1 and The Show, and I’ve had coaches try to coax a definition out of me… and I just quote Mr. Reliford, and they have no recourse but to accept it. 

[StrasburgUmp80136]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

“All this nonsense about the hip, or the wrists, or breaking some imaginary plane perpendicular to the plate… forget about it. If you (as a BU) have it as an attempt to strike at the ball, it is. If you don’t, you don’t.” 

Trust me, I’ve worked every level of baseball, short of D-1 and The Show, and I’ve had coaches try to coax a definition out of me… and I just quote Mr. Reliford, and they have no recourse but to accept it. 

Thank you MadMax for the warm welcome. While I like this answer, it leads me to another, albeit similar question. At what point does the attempt stop being an attempt? As a coach, I teach my players to have a YES YES YES (NO) approach to hitting. From what you posted, should I as an umpire interpret that as long as the attempt stops before the pitch crosses the plate, the hitter is "good?"

[BigBlue4u]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

“All this nonsense about the hip, or the wrists, or breaking some imaginary plane perpendicular to the plate… forget about it. If you (as a BU) have it as an attempt to strike at the ball, it is. If you don’t, you don’t.” 

With all due respect to Charlie Reliford, the hip is a guideline.  Repeat, guideline.  In addition, as mentioned, you do have to ask yourself if the batter was trying to hit the ball.  I've seen situations where a strike was called on a batter who was trying to duck out of the way of a pitch.  His bat came around and the umpire called a strike.  Thinking about the spirit and intent of a rule will keep umpires out of a lot of trouble.

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, maven said:

No rule code defines a check/half swing. NCAA, I think, has a guideline involving the front plane of the plate, but that's only a guideline.

Actually, NCAA does define it:

Half Swing
SECTION 39. An attempt by the batter to stop the forward motion of the bat while swinging, which puts the batter in jeopardy of a strike being called. The half swing shall be called a strike if the barrel head of the bat passes the batter’s front hip. This does not apply to a bunt attempt when the batter pulls the bat back.

[834k3r]

22 hours ago, MadMax said:

In my opinion, this is way too complicated. Simplify it – if it looks like he made an attempt and you are uncertain and/or the defense (coach, catcher) appeals, enact the check swing appeal. It does not erode or erase your authority! 

In a pre-game--especially with a new partner--I'll let them know I may come to them even if they're in B or C. I won't necessarily ask them unilaterally (though I have before once or twice), but if F2 or the DHC wants to appeal to them I'll allow it.

[Jimurray]

51 minutes ago, ross34 said:

section 39 college rule book. when the barrel of the bat breaks the front hip. yes. there definitely is an answer to the rule. You know it all high school guys crack me up. 🤣 

That would not be right as the batter would then be laying on the dirt. You NCAA guys who paraphrase rules crack me up.

[Kevin_K]

14 hours ago, ross34 said:

section 39 college rule book. when the barrel of the bat breaks the front hip. yes. there definitely is an answer to the rule. You know it all high school guys crack me up. 🤣 

Could you direct me to "Section39". I'm a less than know it all high school and college umpire and I am having troubling find the section you reference.

Perhaps my rules book is configured differently than some, but as far as I can it is separated by rules 1-10 and appendices A-I. I don't have a section 39 listed in the table of contents.

[Velho]

36 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

Could you direct me to "Section39". I'm a less than know it all high school and college umpire and I am having troubling find the section you reference

Page 28 of the 2023-24 NCAA rulebook

[Jimurray]

16 minutes ago, Velho said:

Page 28 of the 2023-24 NCAA rulebook

I think @Kevin_K was hinting that the proper cite would be 2-39. 

[beerguy55]

On 8/25/2024 at 9:12 AM, grayhawk said:

Half Swing
SECTION 39. An attempt by the batter to stop the forward motion of the bat while swinging, which puts the batter in jeopardy of a strike being called. The half swing shall be called a strike if the barrel head of the bat passes the batter’s front hip. This does not apply to a bunt attempt when the batter pulls the bat back.

Does this mean, in NCAA (not that I ever expect to see a batter do this at this level), that a batter who squares to bunt and stays perfectly still (ie. doesn't pull back, but doesn't 'offer') shall have a strike called?

[Velho]

12 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I think @Kevin_K was hinting that the proper cite would be 2-39. 

So this is outdated?

[grayhawk]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Does this mean, in NCAA (not that I ever expect to see a batter do this at this level), that a batter who squares to bunt and stays perfectly still (ie. doesn't pull back, but doesn't 'offer') shall have a strike called?

My read of that is that if the batter squares to bunt with his bat past his front hip, that is an offer unless he pulls the bat back. If the bat is not past his front hip, he does not need to pull back and if the pitch is out of the zone it’s a ball, unless he makes a move with his bat towards the pitch. 

From a practical, on the field, standpoint, I am not looking for where his bat is set up. I'm only tracking the pitch and whether or not he offers.

[BigBlue4u]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Does this mean, in NCAA (not that I ever expect to see a batter do this at this level), that a batter who squares to bunt and stays perfectly still (ie. doesn't pull back, but doesn't 'offer') shall have a strike called?

Only if the pitch is in the strike zone.

[BigBlue4u]

18 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Me: "If it wasn't a bunt attempt, why was the bat out there?  The only other reason I know of would be an attempt to interfere with the catcher.  Would you prefer I call interference on her while the runner was stealing?"

Coach: "It was a bunt attempt."

I believe, that in high school softball, leaving the bat over the plate without making an attempt to hit the ball is a strike regardless of the pitch location.