Obstruction

[Dangerdare]

Dropped third strike and catcher does not throw to first however, First Baseman stands on bag and does not allow runner the bag. A collision takes place. Is this Obstruction? Does the First Baseman have an obligation to move to a collision or contact? 

[SeeingEyeDog]

You don't need a collision to call obstruction...was the runner hindered or impeded by a fielder?

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

I just want to throttle people when they say, "But there was no contact!"

Had a coach pull that one this weekend.  I've got your contact right here ... 

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, Dangerdare said:

First Baseman stands on bag and does not allow runner the bag. A collision takes place. Is this Obstruction?

I'm just curious - who argued that this wasn't obstruction?  Or, what argument was presented to why it wouldn't be? 

I guess this is more important in FED where he'd be awarded second base regardless...I think.

Even though F2 never threw the ball this is still Type 1/A, isn't it?   ie. F3 is there because he was expecting a throw.  So is he getting second base in OBR too?

[Senor Azul]

FED case play 8.3.2 Situation K:

F6 fields a ground ball and throws to F3 in an attempt to retire B1 at first. The ball is thrown wide. As F3 lunges towards the ball, F3 collides with B1, knocking B1 to the ground prior to possessing the ball (a) while B1 is short of first base or (b) after B1 has contacted first base. Ruling:  (a) Obstruction, (b) legal.

Since the batter-runner has not attained first base when he is obstructed, the one base he is awarded is first base. In FED it is obstruction because the fielder does not yet have possession of the ball when the collision occurs.

[maven]

I'd say no OBS. I'll go ahead with my followup post now. 😀

Although it's true that F3 may not be in the runner's base path without the ball (subject to an irrelevant exception), I wonder about the collision. The BR has an obligation to avoid a fielder, even an obstructing one, and if he doesn't try to do that, we might be looking at MC.

But even if the collision was just a bump and not MC, how exactly was the BR hindered? He reached 1B, and F2 was standing with the baseball in his hand. Where was the BR going, that contact with F3 hindered him? No hindrance = no OBS.

So, for me, this is either MC or nothing, definitely not OBS as I picture it, and either way I'd have a word with F3 to get out of the way unless he's making a play.

[beerguy55]

I guess he did indeed get to the base, so wasn't obstructed...and if the collision happened before the base then the award is the base.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Dangerdare, what was rule set for this game? FED or OBR? 

Also could you give us some more details please. Did the catcher indeed have the ball in his hand as Mr. maven assumed? Did the catcher attempt a throw or was he still chasing the loose ball?

Where was the runner prior to the collision--in the running lane or not? If he was not in the lane and the catcher tried to throw then there is an interference before the collision.

When did the first baseman get to the base? If he intentionally got in the way of the batter-runner then we would have an obstruction and possibly a malicious contact by the first baseman (which is possible under FED and NCAA rules).

[The Man in Blue]

9 hours ago, maven said:

I'd say no OBS. I'll go ahead with my followup post now. 😀

Although it's true that F3 may not be in the runner's base path without the ball (subject to an irrelevant exception), I wonder about the collision. The BR has an obligation to avoid a fielder, even an obstructing one, and if he doesn't try to do that, we might be looking at MC.

But even if the collision was just a bump and not MC, how exactly was the BR hindered? He reached 1B, and F2 was standing with the baseball in his hand. Where was the BR going, that contact with F3 hindered him? No hindrance = no OBS.

So, for me, this is either MC or nothing, definitely not OBS as I picture it, and either way I'd have a word with F3 to get out of the way unless he's making a play.

 

Neither obstruction nor interference are dependent on the outcome.  They occur at the moment they occur.

Hinder and prevent are very different things.  Prevent is not a requirement, hinder is.

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Where was the runner prior to the collision--in the running lane or not? If he was not in the lane and the catcher tried to throw then there is an interference before the collision.

 

A throw is required for RLI in both FED and OBR (and NCAA).  (perhaps not in LL or some other youth rules codes)

[Senor Azul]

Mr. noumpere, you are, of course, correct and I thank you for pointing out the difference between batter interference and batter-runner interference. In this scenario a throw is required for an interference call on the batter-runner.

[beerguy55]

10 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Neither obstruction nor interference are dependent on the outcome.  They occur at the moment they occur.

Hinder and prevent are very different things.  Prevent is not a requirement, hinder is.

That may be the case, but I don't think that's how it's enforced.

If F3 is standing on first base...even say the back half of first base, he is not preventing B/R from reaching the base.   But I believe (yes, this is my personal opinion, and may be not supported by the rules) he is being hindered...B/R has a choice to slow down, slide, slightly alter his path, or completely miss the base altogether, to avoid collision/injury, all of which ensure he delays himself in reaching the base...or he can keep going and overrun the base to maintain maximum speed and give himself the best chance of reaching the base before the ball, and take his chances on injuring himself and/or F3.

However, I'm not sure the rules care, or agree with me.  Even the FED case play above indicates there's no OBS if the B/R reached base before the collision.

 

Having said all that...this would mean that hindrance happens before first base, so the award would simply be first base.   Very little risk for F3 to do this all day long...yes, he's playing a game of chicken...but sometimes he gets the out and the ump doesn't call anything...if OBS does get called the runner gets the base he likely gets anyway.

[noumpere]

Sometime, the time between the act of OBS and the result is too short to actually make a call.  You can tell the coach, " Skip, I had OBS if I needed it."

 

And, if F3 intentionally does this repeatedly, eject him.  Won't happen (and we'd really only see this at the very young level)

[Vegas_Ump]

On 10/25/2023 at 11:14 AM, maven said:

I'd say no OBS. I'll go ahead with my followup post now. 😀

Although it's true that F3 may not be in the runner's base path without the ball (subject to an irrelevant exception), I wonder about the collision. The BR has an obligation to avoid a fielder, even an obstructing one, and if he doesn't try to do that, we might be looking at MC.

But even if the collision was just a bump and not MC, how exactly was the BR hindered? He reached 1B, and F2 was standing with the baseball in his hand. Where was the BR going, that contact with F3 hindered him? No hindrance = no OBS.

So, for me, this is either MC or nothing, definitely not OBS as I picture it, and either way I'd have a word with F3 to get out of the way unless he's making a play.

I think you DO have obstruction by F3.  However, it does not seem that any play was made on the BR.  So (under OBR), it's type B.  How do you disposition that?  Well, what would have happened had there NOT been any obstruction?  BR safe at first.  So while maven's outcome is the same as mine, there indeed WAS OBS.  It's just that without a play, no base award is possible.  

(And YES I would caution F3 to keep out of the way when there's not play!)

Mike

Las Vegas

[beerguy55]

19 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

I think you DO have obstruction by F3.  However, it does not seem that any play was made on the BR.  So (under OBR), it's type B.  How do you disposition that?  Well, what would have happened had there NOT been any obstruction?  BR safe at first.  So while maven's outcome is the same as mine, there indeed WAS OBS.  It's just that without a play, no base award is possible.  

(And YES I would caution F3 to keep out of the way when there's not play!)

Mike

Las Vegas

I think Type A, but reserve the right to be wrong. There is a play at first (or could be) - that is where B/R is going, and that is why F3 is there.   That F2 changed his mind and decided not to throw should not change this from Type A to Type B.  That's how my brain is working on this...and if the lack of throw does change the type, then I have to ask this one...

R1 is going first to third on a hit to F9.  F9 throws to third, and F5 is blocking the base well before the ball arrives (ie. he's not yet "in the act of" receiving the ball - or in FED it doesn't matter)

- scenario 1 - throw goes to F5, at which point it's most definitely Type A OBS as ball gets to third and F5 makes tag.

- scenario 2 - F6 cuts off throw (maybe because he figures R1 is going to make it and he's keeping B/R at first) - does this change to Type B because the throw was cut off???

[Lou B]

You mean Type 1 and Type 2 Obstruction. 

[beerguy55]

5 minutes ago, Lou B said:

You mean Type 1 and Type 2 Obstruction. 

Type α and Type β

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Vegas_Ump said:

I think you DO have obstruction by F3.  However, it does not seem that any play was made on the BR.  So (under OBR), it's type B.  How do you disposition that?  Well, what would have happened had there NOT been any obstruction?  BR safe at first.  So while maven's outcome is the same as mine, there indeed WAS OBS.  It's just that without a play, no base award is possible.  

(And YES I would caution F3 to keep out of the way when there's not play!)

Mike

Las Vegas

 

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

I think Type A, but reserve the right to be wrong. There is a play at first (or could be) - that is where B/R is going, and that is why F3 is there.   That F2 changed his mind and decided not to throw should not change this from Type A to Type B.  That's how my brain is working on this...and if the lack of throw does change the type, then I have to ask this one...

R1 is going first to third on a hit to F9.  F9 throws to third, and F5 is blocking the base well before the ball arrives (ie. he's not yet "in the act of" receiving the ball - or in FED it doesn't matter)

- scenario 1 - throw goes to F5, at which point it's most definitely Type A OBS as ball gets to third and F5 makes tag.

- scenario 2 - F6 cuts off throw (maybe because he figures R1 is going to make it and he's keeping B/R at first) - does this change to Type B because the throw was cut off???

 

55 minutes ago, Lou B said:

You mean Type 1 and Type 2 Obstruction. 

OBR batter-runner obstructed before 1B is Type 1. Depending on why the catcher didn't throw to 1B if you have OBS you might even award 2B.

[The Man in Blue]

9 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

That may be the case, but I don't think that's how it's enforced.

If F3 is standing on first base...even say the back half of first base, he is not preventing B/R from reaching the base.   But I believe (yes, this is my personal opinion, and may be not supported by the rules) he is being hindered...B/R has a choice to slow down, slide, slightly alter his path, or completely miss the base altogether, to avoid collision/injury, all of which ensure he delays himself in reaching the base...or he can keep going and overrun the base to maintain maximum speed and give himself the best chance of reaching the base before the ball, and take his chances on injuring himself and/or F3.

However, I'm not sure the rules care, or agree with me.  Even the FED case play above indicates there's no OBS if the B/R reached base before the collision.

 

Having said all that...this would mean that hindrance happens before first base, so the award would simply be first base.   Very little risk for F3 to do this all day long...yes, he's playing a game of chicken...but sometimes he gets the out and the ump doesn't call anything...if OBS does get called the runner gets the base he likely gets anyway.

 

I'm not sure which part you are saying is not enforced like that.  Yes, I agree, too many umpires don't make the call and then come back to it to bail themselves out (if needed).  At that point, it looks like you are pulling it out of your backside.  Make the call when it happens.

In your first paragraph, you nailed it.  If the BR had to make any deviation, he was hindered. 

In your second paragraph, a collision after the bag is nothing (barring him rounding to head to second) as the runner was already safe.  There was nothing to hinder him from.

Third paragraph, agreed.  Obstruction before first base is an award of first base (again, barring a chance he was heading on past that).  

(Softball) tournament this past weekend.  Bases loaded and the batter hits a chopper to F6.  R2 takes the path inside the fielder and the fielder has to check up.  I kill it immediately.  F6 fields it and makes the throw to first.  The ball squirts off F3's glove ... but it doesn't matter.  Defensive coach comes out and tries to argue the fielder made the play.  Sorry, nope.  As soon as the runner caused the fielder to check up, it was over.  Nothing after that matters.

Granted, obstruction is a little different in that it stays live, but that doesn't change the administration of the call.  You don't put it in your back pocket.  Call it immediately.  The runner getting there safely doesn't negate the obstruction, it just negates the need for the penalty.

 

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I think Type A, but reserve the right to be wrong. There is a play at first (or could be) - that is where B/R is going, and that is why F3 is there.   That F2 changed his mind and decided not to throw should not change this from Type A to Type B.  That's how my brain is working on this...and if the lack of throw does change the type, then I have to ask this one...

R1 is going first to third on a hit to F9.  F9 throws to third, and F5 is blocking the base well before the ball arrives (ie. he's not yet "in the act of" receiving the ball - or in FED it doesn't matter)

- scenario 1 - throw goes to F5, at which point it's most definitely Type A OBS as ball gets to third and F5 makes tag.

- scenario 2 - F6 cuts off throw (maybe because he figures R1 is going to make it and he's keeping B/R at first) - does this change to Type B because the throw was cut off???

See these plays 1 and 3  from J/R -- Deals with F4, but the same should apply to F2.  One is a play; one is not.

[beerguy55]

15 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I'm not sure which part you are saying is not enforced like that.  Yes, I agree, too many umpires don't make the call and then come back to it to bail themselves out (if needed).  At that point, it looks like you are pulling it out of your backside.  Make the call when it happens.

In your first paragraph, you nailed it.  If the BR had to make any deviation, he was hindered. 

What I mean is that, in practice (I don't know if it's how they're instructed or not), if the runner CHOOSES to slow down or slide or swerve to avoid collision/injury, I see many umpires aren't calling this OBS...because the runner had a clear path TO the bag, and that it was the runner's choice to deviate - in short, if they wanted to reach the base nothing was in their way....the thing in their way is after that point, and so any "hindrance" is related to the runner's ability to overrun the base and/or self-preservation.

 

This is slightly different than a fielder taking a batted ball and holding up to let the runner pass (which many umps will not call that either) because the runner is in the way, and the only way to get to the ball  - at it's current location - would be to collide with the runner.   Leaving the fielder with the choice to let the runner pass and wait for the ball (and hope INT gets called), as the play was indeed hindered.

[The Man in Blue]

Ahhh, I got you @beerguy55 ... 

I'll say it can be a sticky wicket.  I have both called it and not called it.

An interference call should not be a bail out for a fielder who makes bad decision, such as setting up too far back on a ground ball and then the runner goes by.  We do need to see that the runner caused the check up (or the fielder caused the check up of the runner for obstruction).

NOT making this call when you see the opposition is the cause OR NOT making it because the player made a smart decision is DANGEROUS.  We should NEVER be doing things that encourage players or coaches to pull out the "just run him over next time" card.  Contact should NEVER be encouraged, not even through laziness.

[834k3r]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:40 PM, Vegas_Ump said:

I think you DO have obstruction by F3.  However, it does not seem that any play was made on the BR.  So (under OBR), it's type B.  How do you disposition that?  Well, what would have happened had there NOT been any obstruction?  BR safe at first.  So while maven's outcome is the same as mine, there indeed WAS OBS.  It's just that without a play, no base award is possible.

 

In FED, BR is awarded second in this situation (8-3-2).

[noumpere]

1 minute ago, 834k3r said:

In FED, BR is awarded second in this situation (8-3-2).

If the OBS happened before first (which is likely), then the award is just first.

[834k3r]

Just now, noumpere said:

If the OBS happened before first (which is likely), then the award is just first.

Not from my read, but I'm open to other interpretations. What's your reasoning?

[GiantEngineer]

36 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

In FED, BR is awarded second in this situation (8-3-2).

Assuming the obstruction is before touching 1st, unless this was a clear double, why would they get second? You only award the base they would make it to without the obstruction (minimum of one base, which is 1st in this situation).