balk

[Guest john f]

Does  a baser-unner have to advance on a balk? I know the rule says 'SHALL" but shall means may. I am asking as a runner on second base may want to stay there to relay signs to batter. If pitcher commits balk intentionally why should he be rewarded and the runner penalized in his mind ?

[isired]

shall means may

From MW:

Definition of shall
3a—used to express a command or exhortation
you shall go

b—used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory
it shall be unlawful to carry firearms

Not going to address the sign stealing...

[Rich Ives]

32 minutes ago, Guest john f said:

Does  a baser-unner have to advance on a balk? I know the rule says 'SHALL" but shall means may. I am asking as a runner on second base may want to stay there to relay signs to batter. If pitcher commits balk intentionally why should he be rewarded and the runner penalized in his mind ?

Move to 3B so you can score on a WP/PB/SF/Groundout.  

And no - the runner cannot refuse.

And don't get caught relaying signs. Bad for the batter's health.  Get you ejected in LL rules.

 

[LRZ]

For the record, in law, "shall" may mean "must" or "may." Depends. See, e.g.: http://johndimotto.blogspot.com/2015/07/shall-mandatory-or-directory_16.html#:~:text=According to Black's Law Dictionary,is generally imperative or mandatory.&text=It has a peremptory meaning,is generally imperative or mandatory.

[Guest Dave]

Actually your info LRZ is outdated. The Supreme Court has determined in 2018 the word " SHALL" does indeed mean may

[flyingron]

That's as far as things getting litigated in the courts.    Standardese still treats shall as obligatory.   It's pretty clear that the sense of the OBR means obligatory as well.

The next question if you believe that is what is the penalty for a player who is obliged to advance and doesn't.

 

[The Man in Blue]

@flyingron just hit on the point I was going to bring up ... the lack of a penalty does not make it optional.

If the runner refuses?  After disobeying a legal command from an umpire he has removed himself from the game.

[Guest Dave]

The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that “shall” really means “may” – quite a surprise to attorneys who were taught in law school that “shall” means “must”. In fact, “must” is the only word that imposes a legal obligation that something is mandatory.Jan 27, 2019

[isired]

The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that “shall” really means “may” – quite a surprise to attorneys who were taught in law school that “shall” means “must”. In fact, “must” is the only word that imposes a legal obligation that something is mandatory.Jan 27, 2019

Seems so arbitrary - "shall" means "must" in MW, Oxford, every major dictionary going back a hundred years. If it now means "may" in the eyes of the law 9n the U. S. it seems like it's only because the Supreme Court decided that on that day, they were going to change it to "may".

Also really takes the teeth out of the Ten Commandments, doesn't it?

[HokieUmp]

Tell you what, fellas - Supreme Court screwing up about 500 years of legal practice or not....

If I direct a runner to advance a base on a balk, and he doesn't?  SOMEone is going home early.  Maybe more than *a* someone, depending on how that goes.

Must/shall/may/whatever - when I say "You - third base!" that 'you' better %^$@^# well go to third base.

[Replacematt]

I'm gonna hopefully avoid this from getting any further off the tracks...

SCOTUS did not rule that "shall" universally means "may." In Gutierrez de Martinez v. Lamagno, the word "shall" was used improperly in that the object of the sentence was not a person. When it comes to persons, "shall" is still an imperative.

[Velho]

 

[Senor Azul]

High school rule 2-3 states that the runner is entitled to advance one base when the pitcher balks. Here is how that is officially interpreted--from the 2016 BRD (section 32, p. 38):

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  A runner is forced to accept the awarded base.

2007 NFHS Baseball Interpretations

SITUATION 6: In the top of the seventh in the last game of the season, the visiting team's shortstop is one stolen base short of the record for stolen bases. With one out, he is hit by a pitch and is awarded first base. The pitcher, trying to keep him close to first base, throws over several times. On the last attempted pick-off, the pitcher throws the ball into the dugout. The umpire properly awards the runner second base on the dead ball. The runner and his coach tell the umpire that they will decline the award since they believe he will have a better chance of stealing second base vs. stealing third base. Is the award to a runner optional? RULING: The runner must advance. The award of a base is not optional and cannot be declined by the offense. (8-3-3d)

NCAA:  The NCAA actually uses the word must in its balk rule 9-3

PENALTY for a. through m.—Balk. The ball becomes dead and each runner must advance one base.

OBR:  Is all over the place when describing the penalty for a balk. A runner is entitled to advance in its definition of the term balk. Rule 5.06(c)(3) states that runners advance. Rule 5.06(b-3A) tells us that the runners may advance one base. Its rule 6.02(a) Penalty then tells us that each runner shall advance one base.

[LMSANS]

2 hours ago, isired said:

Seems so arbitrary - "shall" means "must" in MW, Oxford, every major dictionary going back a hundred years. If it now means "may" in the eyes of the law 9n the U. S. it seems like it's only because the Supreme Court decided that on that day, they were going to change it to "may".

Also really takes the teeth out of the Ten Commandments, doesn't it?

I think not since they were not written in English, nor are they subject to the rulings of SCOTUS.

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, isired said:

Seems so arbitrary - "shall" means "must" in MW, Oxford, every major dictionary going back a hundred years. If it now means "may" in the eyes of the law 9n the U. S. it seems like it's only because the Supreme Court decided that on that day, they were going to change it to "may".

Also really takes the teeth out of the Ten Commandments, doesn't it?

Nah, nah ... religious hypocrisy did that long before the Supreme Court.  

[The Man in Blue]

Teams shall wear proper uniforms ... or play naked.  Yeah, whatever works.

[noumpere]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 or play naked. 

Time to start officiating adult women's softball.

[mac266]

20 hours ago, Guest john f said:

Does  a baser-unner have to advance on a balk? I know the rule says 'SHALL" but shall means may. I am asking as a runner on second base may want to stay there to relay signs to batter. If pitcher commits balk intentionally why should he be rewarded and the runner penalized in his mind ?

Is English your second language?  Because "shall" does not mean "may."  They are NOT synonymous.  

[beerguy55]

On 5/30/2021 at 7:11 AM, mac266 said:

Is English your second language?  Because "shall" does not mean "may."  They are NOT synonymous.  

The English definition isn't entirely relevant - several things in the rule book/baseball terminology that don't quite line up with everyday vernacular.

Regardless - Look up a typical thesaurus - shall is synonymous with both "must" and "intend".

Should is the simple past tense of shall.   For all intense and purposes, they are interchangeable.  Should is commonly accepted to be both may or must...or, at best, highly encouraged...by extension, shall MUST also be both may or must...or highly encouraged.    I have seen organizations in writing their policies try to say that should="strongly recommended" and shall=must - and that's effectively what OBR is attempting - and for the most part the differentiation is accepted as such (Supreme Court notwithstanding)...it's not grammatically accurate.   should=shall=must=may=want to=intend.  Must=Must.  Obliged.  Required.   Forced (see what I did there?)

"Will" would be a better word than "shall", IMO.

 

[aaluck]

On 5/29/2021 at 1:24 PM, Guest Dave said:

The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that “shall” really means “may” – quite a surprise to attorneys who were taught in law school that “shall” means “must”. In fact, “must” is the only word that imposes a legal obligation that something is mandatory.Jan 27, 2019

Please provide the cite of that case.  I would like to read it as that's news to me.

[Replacematt]

6 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Please provide the cite of that case.  I would like to read it as that's news to me.

I already mentioned it, and that it isn't what people are saying here.