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RC2004

First One

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I had my first ejection tonight. First 3 innings went smooth no issues. In the bottom of the 4th VT was struggling at this point the game was 11-3 and out of hand. 3-2 pitch was high and walked another kid. The catcher went out for a mound visit and as I am on my way back the VHC starts yelling to his pitcher 'You're fine, you had him struck out" then he looks at me and says "that's on you". I said "I don't want to hear it" he then yells "That ball was right down the middle" I yelled back "no more we are not discussing balls and strikes" he yells "you missed it". I then yell back with my hand up, "knock it off" he then says "throw me out". I threw him out and he looked into the stands and said "that's how you do it". Is there anything I should have done differently or said differently? Thanks.

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One thing I don't get. He says "Throw me out" and he looks into the stands and says "That's how you do it." Was he looking to get tossed? But if he was serious about challenging you, then you issued at least one warning, maybe two, too many, in my view.

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When he said, "that's on you." Time to dump right then and there. No need to discuss it any further. He's implying either you're incompetent, or you've favored the other team.

No need to tell him anything else, IMO.

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Just like JC said, when he says "that's on you" he's basically saying your cheating.  Dump him right there.

 

And, way to much yelling from you at him.  Make him come out to you, don't just keep yelling like he's doing.

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He got to say too much before you launched him, but at least you launched him.

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Good EJ, no good baseball guy is going to tell you that his pitcher's problems are your fault unless he wants to go. His interaction with the stands after the ejection supports the idea he was planning on getting run.
In a case like this you want to keep the show to a minimum. Your refusal to discuss balls and strikes is perfect. It sets up rule support for an ejection if things go any further. Something like, "knock if off, we're not talking about balls and strikes. It's against the rules and sets a bad example for the kids". I'd say that loud enough for both dugouts and the stands to hear. After that the choice is clear. If the coach continues to violate the rules he's gone with out a big deal being made of it.

Also I'll suggest that for every piece of advise you get about umpiring you add, "call more strikes", to the end of it.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

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6 hours ago, catsbackr said:

Make him come out to you...

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Cats... We're living in the COVID-19 Pandemic Age. According to ~some~ on here, we're all infected and infectious, and we shouldn't even be doing baseball yet. And if we are doing baseball, we should be at least thirty feet away from each other, wearing antiseptic gloves and double masks. Oh! And don't forget, the balls need to be sanitized after every pitch because they carry the virus, and it's deadly contagious!

Do you really want that coach in your face? You're asking to contract the virus!

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There was something else about your interaction that pinched me, but I just realized what it was. Your first reply was "I don't want to hear it." I think this is non-responsive and not an effective way to (try to) shut off any further discussion. Instead, your second response is more appropriate: "We're not discussing balls and strikes."

For me, "That's on you" is not an accusation of cheating, but a criticism of one's consistency, perhaps. I see nothing wrong with not ejecting immediately, just on that first remark. (As you can see, umpires have different tolerances.) But when he continued--well, he's got to go.

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I'm a big fan of the STFU stare more than wasting time engaging them in any pedantic banter or offering any salvos that provide an opportunity for them to demonstrate how dumb they might actually be.

Either way, if they ask me to punch their ticket, I will oblige.

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On 5/31/2020 at 8:20 PM, RC2004 said:

I had my first ejection tonight. 

Congrats and good job.  

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On 5/31/2020 at 8:04 PM, catsbackr said:

Just like JC said, when he says "that's on you" he's basically saying your cheating.

No, he's saying you're incompetent.

I've never in my life accused, or thought, or believed, an ump to be cheating.

I've believed certain umps to be incompetent, ignorant, unqualified, lazy, or simply having a bad day.

In the grand scheme of things, if it's down to malice or ineptitude it's almost always ineptitude.   Same result.

And yes, of course this coach was getting run on purpose...and frankly, he wasn't really good at it...if he wanted to demonstrate how to do it, "suck my cock" is much more efficient.

And before you get antsy, I've been tossed from exactly two games in my life as a coach...

1. Ump kept granting time to batter in middle of windup - I said "you need to stop doing that" Ump said "you need to shut up" I said "you need to go to Hell" - gone

2. Ump said "hands are part of the bat" I said "when you buy a bat you don't get a pair of hands with it" - gone

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On 5/31/2020 at 7:20 PM, RC2004 said:

I had my first ejection tonight. First 3 innings went smooth no issues. In the bottom of the 4th VT was struggling at this point the game was 11-3 and out of hand. 3-2 pitch was high and walked another kid. The catcher went out for a mound visit and as I am on my way back the VHC starts yelling to his pitcher 'You're fine, you had him struck out" then he looks at me and says "that's on you". I said "I don't want to hear it" he then yells "That ball was right down the middle" I yelled back "no more we are not discussing balls and strikes" he yells "you missed it". I then yell back with my hand up, "knock it off" he then says "throw me out". I threw him out and he looked into the stands and said "that's how you do it". Is there anything I should have done differently or said differently? Thanks.

Congrats!  Sounds OK for a first time.  I would have gone this way though:
 

A simple look and the “hand-up stop sign.”

Your response was OK, other than yelling it back.  I would have let that one go though.

This is where I take out my line-up card and walk over there.  Just loud enough for him: “Coach, this is almost over.  If I have to finish out this SH*# show you are putting on, so do you.”  Sorry, begging to get tossed gets you the exact opposite.  Your punishment is having to put down this abomination of a game that you gave birth to.  (Obviously, he could push it further and get tossed though.)

One approach I have not taken (but will try to in the future) is to consider this one basic thought: What am I gaining (or preventing) by ejecting?  If I can’t come up with a quick answer, then I should really consider my next move carefully.  Ejecting just because they got under your skin is not an adequate response.  I would say I have been about 50/50 with gaining something versus just getting a jackass out of my head.
 


 

 

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On 6/10/2020 at 7:05 PM, catsbackr said:

I ain't antsy, your just wrong.  Figured you for a rat.

Ah...honey...hush...yeah, I'm a rat 'cause some umpires aren't very good at their job.

No, when a coach (wrongly) says "that's on you" he's basically saying "you are awful at your job". Even the idiots who want to blame you when they lose.  They think you're inept, not a cheat.  Oh, I know there are those who think they're being picked on, that the ump has a personal vendetta or bias.  They're the minority.  And they have a lower IQ.   The reality is, if you're truly having a SH*#ty game (yes, even you have them), you're making SH*#ty calls against both teams, and most coaches notice that.

I've seen great umps, average umps, bad umps.  Lazy umps. And those who Hustle.  Apathetic umps and Passionate umps.  Engaged...and Not.  And great umps who simply have a bad day.  I've never once in my life thought an ump was cheating, favoring the other team, or biased against me.  And certainly never blamed an ump for a game my team lost.  If you put up 15 runs then the ump doesn't matter.  If you don't put up 15 runs, it's on the coach and players, not the ump.  The closest I ever came to questioning the optics was seeing a 14 year old have to ump a game where one of the players was his younger brother - and in the end I simply felt sorry for the position he'd been put into.

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2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Ah...honey...hush...yeah, I'm a rat 'cause some umpires aren't very good at their job.

No, when a coach (wrongly) says "that's on you" he's basically saying "you are awful at your job". Even the idiots who want to blame you when they lose.  They think you're inept, not a cheat.  Oh, I know there are those who think they're being picked on, that the ump has a personal vendetta or bias.  They're the minority.  And they have a lower IQ.   The reality is, if you're truly having a SH*#ty game (yes, even you have them), you're making SH*#ty calls against both teams, and most coaches notice that.

I've seen great umps, average umps, bad umps.  Lazy umps. And those who Hustle.  Apathetic umps and Passionate umps.  Engaged...and Not.  And great umps who simply have a bad day.  I've never once in my life thought an ump was cheating, favoring the other team, or biased against me.  And certainly never blamed an ump for a game my team lost.  If you put up 15 runs then the ump doesn't matter.  If you don't put up 15 runs, it's on the coach and players, not the ump.  The closest I ever came to questioning the optics was seeing a 14 year old have to ump a game where one of the players was his younger brother - and in the end I simply felt sorry for the position he'd been put into.

I do understand what you are saying, but when you think an umpire is having a bad day, perhaps it's you who are having a bad day. I've had coaches tell me that I missed a call, or the dreaded "that's two" and be 100% dead solid certain that I got them right. So he probably walked off the field thinking I had a bad day when, in fact, he was the one having the bad day (judging my calls, that is).

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Wow, pretty good EJ for first one (this season, or ever?)! 

Really, a good one to remember and get some good experience out of..

You learned your probably could skip the first "I don't want to hear it' and go straight to "no arguing balls and strikes", and still be effective

Also learned this guy planned to get tossed, to stir/wake up the team or whatever. And you obliged, that's good, because he would have gotten nastier and nastier and it would have degraded.

I am learning that when games start getting out of control on the scoreboard, there are a (small) set of coaches that will stir the pot, either by dumping on their team (maybe singling out one victim), going after the opposition coaches/players, or going after the umpires, to "wake up" their team. So I anticipate that it may get ugly and prepare to maybe have to deal with it. For example, I find a good "EJ test" that if they throw something my way (maybe I did not exactly hear what it was exactly, but know it was probably unsportsmanlike) I will ask rather directly       "What did you say?" in a tone that I would use with my kids. If they are looking to get tossed, they will most certainly repeat it, and I will then most certainly oblige. If it was just frustration, they will avoid repeating it and may even say they weren't talking to you, or they deny saying anything, or they attempt to change it into a question, which you can then shut down respectfully and they can avoid getting tossed - either way, it gets a warning to them in a tone that may be effective. 

For me, this is a difficult part of the game, because its the human interaction, and everyone is different. Also, since it is challenging, it also is kinda fun and a learning experience for me every time.

Thanks for posting

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On 6/12/2020 at 5:06 PM, grayhawk said:

I do understand what you are saying, but when you think an umpire is having a bad day, perhaps it's you who are having a bad day. I've had coaches tell me that I missed a call, or the dreaded "that's two" and be 100% dead solid certain that I got them right. So he probably walked off the field thinking I had a bad day when, in fact, he was the one having the bad day (judging my calls, that is).

Agree 100% - I've said "my bad" to more than a few umps over the years.  I fully accept the possibility at any given time that "it's me"...on the other side...when both coaches are talking to each other between innings and saying "let's just get through this and hope we don't see this guy again next week" there is a higher likelihood it's the guy in blue who's off his game...my point all along is we're all human, we all screw up, and in some cases, we just suck at what we're doing (both coaches and umps)...if a coach is laying into you, it's because he thinks you're doing a bad job (doesn't mean he's right)...he's (typically) not thinking you're being malicious.

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1 hour ago, BobUmp said:

Wow, pretty good EJ for first one (this season, or ever?)! 

Really, a good one to remember and get some good experience out of..

You learned your probably could skip the first "I don't want to hear it' and go straight to "no arguing balls and strikes", and still be effective

Also learned this guy planned to get tossed, to stir/wake up the team or whatever. And you obliged, that's good, because he would have gotten nastier and nastier and it would have degraded.

I am learning that when games start getting out of control on the scoreboard, there are a (small) set of coaches that will stir the pot, either by dumping on their team (maybe singling out one victim), going after the opposition coaches/players, or going after the umpires, to "wake up" their team. So I anticipate that it may get ugly and prepare to maybe have to deal with it. For example, I find a good "EJ test" that if they throw something my way (maybe I did not exactly hear what it was exactly, but know it was probably unsportsmanlike) I will ask rather directly       "What did you say?" in a tone that I would use with my kids. If they are looking to get tossed, they will most certainly repeat it, and I will then most certainly oblige. If it was just frustration, they will avoid repeating it and may even say they weren't talking to you, or they deny saying anything, or they attempt to change it into a question, which you can then shut down respectfully and they can avoid getting tossed - either way, it gets a warning to them in a tone that may be effective. 

For me, this is a difficult part of the game, because its the human interaction, and everyone is different. Also, since it is challenging, it also is kinda fun and a learning experience for me every time.

Thanks for posting

 

Hey, do you have a YouTube channel for umpires?  I watched an ejection tutorial and the guy taught the exact same method ("What did you say?") as you use.  It's a great channel, by the way.

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"What did you say?" can be perceived as baiting, both unnecessary and unprofessional.

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No youtube that i can think of.. I think I saw what you are talking about a while back. If I remember, he was a lot quicker to eject than i have been in my career so far. But also i think while he is quick on the hook, he approaches it professionally, and not red as$$. Generally speaking, we should NOT have to just take a simmering level of crap from players and/or coaches continuously all day because of either a perceived or real inconsistent strike zone or a possible missed/blown call. Fans/parents, well, let's just ignore them, unless they are a danger or distraction to the players. But I am certainly not riding a coach for 6 innings if he misses an obvious bunt situation or sends a kid from 3rd to be put out by a mile. That would be unprofessional of me. I think the same for them. They can certainly express emotions at the moment, and can certainly stew and mope, its a game and emotions are part of it. But they cannot IMO have license to then ride you for an entire game because they felt slighted. Its no good for the game, for the kids, for you, so take care of business. Go mope and complain at the TGI Fridays down the way while you reserve a table for 16 waiting for the game to end.  

And on the "What did you say?" - it's all tone and body language, which is totally under your own control.

Sure, you can say it in a tone and with an aggressive stance, like moving towards the coach, to send a "baiting" message

You can also say it in a tone with an open and un-aggressive stance (passive, looking right at them, not moving towards them) to come off as "I don't think I heard you correctly". 

I meant the second tone. It opens the door for them to back off and be respectful if they overstepped and regret it. yet it also lets them know you heard SOMETHING that may be grounds for a warning/ejection, and want clarification. It often gives them an out and (gently) lets them know you are not going to just take anything they dish at you.

This works in other non-umpire scenarios also, even used it with the boss once, when I knew he was annoyed at something else and got chippy with me. I gave him an exit strategy, and he took it, re-worded/clarified, and I got out of there without getting myself in trouble having to stand up for myself for something he really didn't mean.

I think, maybe practiced and planned (in your toolbox), it can be very effective at weeding out over-reactions that don't warrant an ejection (yet) and "problem children" that need to be dealt with as early as possible

Think of it.. You are not giving a strike to his pitcher low off the outside plate. Mr. bucket sitter starts getting testy, and maybe even got a stare in from you already. You call another ball, and he goes out to the mound. He stays there to make you walk out and break it up. When you get there he makes some snarky comment like "all day" "come on now", which you know was directed to you, either by his body language or by the pitcher reaction. An "unaggressive" "Mike, what did you say?" gets you a lot of information on how the day will progress:

1) "You heard me, that's a strike all day, Bob, why not for my guy?" or "come on now Bob, you're zone is a disgrace" - OK he's ejected, he's not going to be cordial in an inning or two after he says that to you. One of us has to go, and it will be him

2) " What do you mean, Bob? Just finishing with the pitcher" - OK he backed off, and has a good chance of staying the rest of the game (unless I truly am sucking)

3) "I'm not talking to you. You don't need to know what i'm saying" - Well, this begs some more "passive" discussion... We are probably heading to an ejection, and good riddance...

And with all of this, it still is a human interaction thing, and what works one time will probably not work another time. But at least this tool in the toolbox, at a minimum, gets you more information to make a decision on ejecting/warning/ignoring

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@mac266 was this the video you were thinking of? "Umpire Ejection Tutorial - John Gallante" https://youtu.be/W_FtBx9wRKs

IMO "What did you say?" doesn't have to be baiting, if you say it the way @BobUmp described above. Saying it in a non-aggressive tone can be used to give a coach an exit.

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On 6/30/2020 at 9:06 PM, Young_Ump said:

@mac266 was this the video you were thinking of? "Umpire Ejection Tutorial - John Gallante" https://youtu.be/W_FtBx9wRKs

IMO "What did you say?" doesn't have to be baiting, if you say it the way @BobUmp described above. Saying it in a non-aggressive tone can be used to give a coach an exit.

Yes, that's the one.

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Exit strategy? I "exit" by applying IAWE and by getting back to business. The only "exit" a coach is likely to need is the one that sends him to the parking lot.

Put another way, I may let the coach have the "last word" because I know I'll have the final say.

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