First and third...

[Guest Dan]

High school game, runners on first and third.  Runner on first starts walking toward the right fielder.  He is 30-40 feet into the outfield, looking to draw a throw.  Is this legal?  From what the guys have found in casebook it is.  I find that hard to believe...

[ALStripes17]

High school game, runners on first and third.  Runner on first starts walking toward the right fielder.  He is 30-40 feet into the outfield, looking to draw a throw.  Is this legal?  From what the guys have found in casebook it is.  I find that hard to believe...

Yes very legal. Runner establishes his baseline. 3ft rule applies once a fielder is attempting to make a play on him. Rule very liberally there

Best thing pitcher can do is just pitch the ball.

We also had the defense come together in a huddle on the mound, hot potato the baseball, and disperse at the runners randomly. Runners panicked not knowing who had the baseball.

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[Richvee]

Google "Skunk in the outfield"

 

[umpstu]

He's abandoning if he's walking out to the outfield. That's not establishing his base path.

 

[Jimurray]

10 minutes ago, umpstu said:

He's abandoning if he's walking out to the outfield. That's not establishing his base path.

 

What?

[Jimurray]

Upon second thought, if you knew he was the RF, it might be fun to use that rule.

[umpstu]

11 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

What?

30-40 feet into the outfield isn't establishing a base path.  

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, umpstu said:

30-40 feet into the outfield isn't establishing a base path.  

I don't see establishing a basepath in the rules but I do see a potential to call a RF out for heading to his position.

[umpstu]

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I don't see establishing a basepath in the rules but I do see a potential to call a RF out for heading to his position.

So what would his base path be in that situation?  It's between the bases, not right field. I'd also invoke the points not covered clause.

 

 

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, umpstu said:

So what would his base path be in that situation?  It's between the bases, not right field. I'd also invoke the points not covered clause.

 

 

While bush, any well trained team, and well trained umpire can deal with it. Have you underground any training?

[umpstu]

9 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

While bush, any well trained team, and well trained umpire can deal with it. Have you underground any training?

Much training. Too much to type. Brinkman/Froemming in 96, but I was 36 and had just retired from the Navy.  More clinics than you can shake a stick at. You?  Nowdays when attending a clinic I like to do it and bring back the info to the cheap guys and younger guys.

 

[Rich Ives]

31 minutes ago, umpstu said:

So what would his base path be in that situation?  It's between the bases, not right field. I'd also invoke the points not covered clause.

 

 

It's been ruled legal by FED.  Your opinion doesn't count.

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, umpstu said:

Much training. Too much to type. Brinkman/Froemming in 96, but I was 36 and had just retired from the Navy.  More clinics than you can shake a stick at. You?  Nowdays when attending a clinic I like to do it and bring back the info to the cheap guys and younger guys.

 

So, skunk in the outfield, as bush, probably wouldn't have been covered in your training. Although you dislike it as bush it is not illegal but I like the potential to call a RF or CF out for going to his position. Otherwise, I'm finding it hard to believe that you are hanging your hat upon "establishing his basepath" unless a tag attempt was in progress.

[umpstu]

5 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

It's been ruled legal by FED.  Your opinion doesn't count.

Where does it say he can walk 30-40 feet into the outfield?

[umpstu]

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

So, skunk in the outfield, as bush, probably wouldn't have been covered in your training. Although you dislike it as bush it is not illegal but I like the potential to call a RF or CF out for going to his position. Otherwise, I'm finding it hard to believe that you are hanging your hat upon "establishing his basepath" unless a tag attempt was in progress.

Never once said the word bush.

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, umpstu said:

Never once said the word bush.

It is bush. I said it. And we deal with bush as the rules allow which is why I'm intrigued with calling a F9 or F8 out for going to his position thinking that play was over. But your use of establishing his basepath would not work. 

[ALStripes17]

Where does it say he can walk 30-40 feet into the outfield?

Where does it say he can't? He is allowed to establish his baseline where he wants. He has not abandoned his attempt by any means as we, and everyone else in the park, know he is still a base runner.

This play is legal in all codes. Don't overcomplicate it. It's used at levels where the players are still fairly naive and liable to make a costly mistake. Haven't heard of this at NCAA level or above. Please see first response....

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[Kevin_K]

@umpstu.... would R2 be out for taking a deep lead off 2B that is 15-20 ft toward left field when there are 2 out? That position is certainly not, as you indicate "between the bases," yet is frequently employed.

[Dbellyflop]

6 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I don't see establishing a basepath in the rules but I do see a potential to call a RF out for heading to his position.

(b) (7.08) Retiring a Runner Any runner is out when: (1) He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or

[scrounge]

I upvoted the negative comments, simply because downvoting totally screws up the order of the posts and destroys the continuity of the conversation.

However, that is in no way an endorsement or agreement with @umpstu's position. I think you're making a ruling that violated your sensibilities, rather than any rule.

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, umpstu said:

Where does it say he can walk 30-40 feet into the outfield?

Here:

 

SITUATION 20: With R1 on third base, R2 takes a lead off of first base and positions himself at the grass behind first base down the right field line. F1 throws to F3 in an attempt to pick off B2. R2 runs down the right field foul line toward the outfield fence. RULING: While R2’s position is legal, he is declared out when he ran toward the outfield fence when a play was attempted. In running down the foul line, he was out of the baseline he had between his position at the time of the pick off and second base.(8-4-2a)

[stkjock]

21 minutes ago, scrounge said:

I upvoted the negative comments, simply because downvoting totally screws up the order of the posts and destroys the continuity of the conversation.

However, that is in no way an endorsement or agreement with @umpstu's position. I think you're making a ruling that violated your sensibilities, rather than any rule.

Just use the "Sort by Date" button on the top right part of the thread to resort it.

 

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Dbellyflop said:

(b) (7.08) Retiring a Runner Any runner is out when: (1) He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or

You did see that I referenced that wording in one of my posts? 

[scrounge]

50 minutes ago, stkjock said:

Just use the "Sort by Date" button on the top right part of the thread to resort it.

 

 

 

 

Oh, cool....thanks, didn't see that before. Downvote away, people!

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 Baseball Rules Differences by Carl Childress (section 454, p. 301):

Runner Establishes Base Path

FED:  When a play is being made on a runner, he establishes his base path as a direct line between his position and the base he is trying for. (8-4-2a-2)

Official Interpretation: Hopkins:  The “skunk in the outfield” is legal. A runner may lead off any way he likes toward the next base and is not guilty of an infraction unless he uses more than three feet on either side of his base path to avoid a tag. (Website 2000 #20; affirmed, website 2005 #16)

NCAA and OBR:  Same as Fed.

OBR Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt:  A runner may lead off in any manner he wishes, including as far into the outfield as he’d like. The only restriction involves first:  If BR runs through first, he is required to return to it before taking his lead. He may not remain out in the outfield and “lead off” from that position, or attempt to draw a throw from the defense to allow other runners to advance.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

12 hours ago, umpstu said:

He's abandoning if he's walking out to the outfield. That's not establishing his base path.

 

No, no. no, and again NO.

Calling this "abandonment" is just an excuse to "find an out"...an out that can't be justified under ANY rule set.