check swing help

[Guest older guy]

Two man, do you go for help with RH batter if U1 is in B or C?   LH batter  I assume no help with U1 in A?  and again what about U1 in B or C?

Thanks.

[noumpere]

Go.  Go Dog.  Go, Dog, Go.

No matter where BU is standing or the handedness of the batter.  Just go.  In fact, it's required to do so under OBR.  But, even in FED where it's an option, go.

 

Go, Go, Go.

[maven]

A, B, C, or D — no matter where the BU is positioned, go.

Unless he's in H. Then you have a problem.

[udbrky]

BU doesn't have to say he went, but I think everywhere is teaching now just to ask.

[ricka56]

There are dinosaurs out there that will not be happy if you ask them if they are in B/C. Some will even throw you under the bus and say "I dunno...that's your call". You should pre-game this situation to see if you have a dinosaur partner. If you do, I wouldn't ask him (and if he's PU, he will never ask you)...
...survive your game...don't fv<% with the dinosaur.  

[Kevin_K]

So I get the whole idea of going to your partner if the defense asks, but why would anyone think that U1, in position A, has a look at a left handed batter's swing that might be better than what PU sees? 

I don't know that I would ever Go to my partner in this situation.

[udbrky]

Our association harped on going to the partner, but unless it's super obvious that he went and PU got blocked, that BU says no. His point was, it is better to just ask than to argue back and forth with the coach about not asking. I know in watching some other videos on mechanics, the same thing was said. The point being "Is this the hill you want to die on?"

[Richvee]

If someone comes to me in A for LHB swing, I better be able to see hands and a whole bat to even think about calling a swing. And if the batter went that far, gotta wonder how PU missed it.

[noumpere]

Oh please.  If you spend anytime watching baseball, you know that you can see just as well from A (LH batter) as you can from D.

 

Just answer the question if you are asked.  Don't hide behind that "I was in B or C or behind the batter" crap.

 

And don't pull out the "if I ask with my palm up, say know, but if I use your name and point give me what you have."

[udbrky]

If you do not think you had a good view of it, then you can't say he went.

Therefore, he didn't go.

QED.

[Richvee]

I'll give what I have every time. I'm just saying, from A (LHB) I need to see hands and a bat to call a swing.

[HokieUmp]

1 hour ago, ricka56 said:

Some will even throw you under the bus and say "I dunno...that's your call". You should pre-game this situation to see if you have a dinosaur partner. If you do, I wouldn't ask him (and if he's PU, he will never ask you)...

I don't usually pre-game this.  I figure he's supposed to know his job, and this is part of his job.

And on the bus-tossing you mention.... I'm torn.  I dread that happening to me, since I can sort of see that happening with some people.  On the other hand, part of me would almost relish the situation;  I mean, if the guy has the stones to say "that's your call" from that distance for all to hear, then he should have the stones to get back my response, also for all to hear.

[BCBrad]

I agree with Richvee.  If you're sure, say he went. If you saw a clear attempt (hands out) then I'm calling what I saw. 

Our association really promotes going to your partner and respecting his/her call. I do not know of where you would not. If I was umpiring the dish with a younger umpire, I would have no problems if he/she said "Yes he did." How can you feel being showed up or being thrown under the bus because your partner said he went. That is their judgement and the rule book says this is the procedure. It says, in this case, it is their call. 

Now I have a problem when an umpire is not calling what he/she sees and instead calls what she/he thinks others want to be called. 

 

 

[ElkOil]

3 hours ago, udbrky said:

Our association harped on going to the partner, but unless it's super obvious that he went and PU got blocked, that BU says no. His point was, it is better to just ask than to argue back and forth with the coach about not asking. I know in watching some other videos on mechanics, the same thing was said. The point being "Is this the hill you want to die on?"

That is so wrong. If BU is asked, he should say what he saw. Period. No rationalization can excuse away the school of thought to do otherwise.

[ricka56]

I agree with ElkOil. If you ask me, you're gonna get what I got. Don't just appease the coach by asking and then complain that I changed your call. If you don't want what I got, have the guts to stick with your own call and don't ask. 

[noumpere]

There are calls where we use the "benefit of the doubt" to help us.  It's gong to be "safe" unless we clearly see an "out" (on some particular play, and just hypothetically).

 

But here, there's no "benefit of the doubt" -- to either side.  There's no "I have to clearly see a swing" or "Only if I can see the hands" or "it must be super obvious".  See it.  Decide.  Announce it.  Period.

 

imo, of course.

[maineump]

I will go to my partner, no matter where he is if I am blocked. HS (and younger) catchers come up a lot, so sometimes just a little preventative umpiring can help, tell him: "You need to stay down so I can see that pitch/swing". I hate the Jason Veritec standing with an 0-2 count thing. When the coach complains, tell him to have his catcher stay down on the pitch to give you a look, that usually works.

If plate guy gets blocked and there is a question, you really should go. The base guy just has to give what he saw, no matter where he is, or if he has a the 'good angle'. It's 2 umpires doing everything they can to get the calls right - work together,

[scrounge]

39 minutes ago, noumpere said:

But here, there's no "benefit of the doubt" -- to either side.  There's no "I have to clearly see a swing" or "Only if I can see the hands" or "it must be super obvious".  See it.  Decide.  Announce it.  Period.

Well, there's the rub...part of 'See it. Decide.' is using a heuristic or guideline to help you see and decide. For many, elements of that decision include whether the attempt was obvious enough to remove doubt that it was an attempt to strike, or seeing the full length of the bat, or seeing the hands, or etc. None of these are clear-cut indications of an attempt to strike...but you have to have SOMETHING that you use to create the threshold in your mind of how you decide after you see it. It's too simplistic to just say 'See it. Decide'. That's fine...but on WHAT are you deciding? For what are you looking when you see it? Everyone has to use some kind of visual marker or guide to do so.

[noumpere]

The point is that you use the same "criteria" whether you are in A or B or C or D and whether the batter is RH or LH.

[scrounge]

3 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The point is that you use the same "criteria" whether you are in A or B or C or D and whether the batter is RH or LH.

Sure, I agree with that...I may need to see it be more definitive in B/C simply because of the angle, but the criteria didn't change. Only my confidence in whether that criteria is met.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Simple procedure:

When on the plate... ALWAYS get help when asked, no matter where partner is, or which way batter is hitting.

When on bases... Wait till partner asks, then just call what you saw.

No need to make it any more complicated than that.

 

 

[ricka56]

42 minutes ago, scrounge said:

Well, there's the rub...part of 'See it. Decide.' is using a heuristic or guideline to help you see and decide. For many, elements of that decision include whether the attempt was obvious enough to remove doubt that it was an attempt to strike, or seeing the full length of the bat, or seeing the hands, or etc. None of these are clear-cut indications of an attempt to strike...but you have to have SOMETHING that you use to create the threshold in your mind of how you decide after you see it. It's too simplistic to just say 'See it. Decide'. That's fine...but on WHAT are you deciding? For what are you looking when you see it? Everyone has to use some kind of visual marker or guide to do so.

That's a whole 'nother thread ... which I know there are more than one of in the U-E archives. 

[ALStripes17]

That's a whole 'nother thread ... which I know there are more than one of in the U-E archives. 

A puppy has been punched...

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[maineump]

Basically it comes down to - do you feel the batter made an ATTEMPT at the pitch. You can see that from anywhere. Watching the 'breaking of the wrists' or by going just on the barrel of the bat location are not the only things involved in the attempt. It is the entire action of the batter.

[ALStripes17]

Basically it comes down to - do you feel the batter made an ATTEMPT at the pitch. You can see that from anywhere. Watching the 'breaking of the wrists' or by going just on the barrel of the bat location are not the only things involved in the attempt. It is the entire action of the batter.

Or you can go by the aid given to us in 10-1-4(a)... Granted, it concludes by saying '..final decision is based on whether the batter actually struck at the ball.'

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[ZebraStripes]

18 hours ago, Guest older guy said:

Two man, do you go for help with RH batter if U1 is in B or C?   LH batter  I assume no help with U1 in A?  and again what about U1 in B or C?

Thanks.

If he's not on the toilet and the head coach or catcher request I am asking.