Steal of home - Replay confirmed

[Thunderheads]

got to be one of (if not THE) toughest situation to get a great position ...... he nailed it though

[noumpere]

Very close to CI.

 

In fact, upon review, ...

[lawump]

noumpere: I thought CI and a balk, too.  But, actually, watch closely: at the two second mark  F1 steps back off the rubber before throwing home.  It was a great no-call that I probably would have blown.  LOL

[noumpere]

noumpere: I thought CI and a balk, too.  But, actually, watch closely: at the two second mark  F1 steps back off the rubber before throwing home.  It was a great no-call that I probably would have blown.  LOL

Agreed -- I usually start the ad and then read other posts and then go back to the video, so I didn't see the first few seconds originally.

[Thunderheads]

Agreed -- I usually start the ad and then read other posts and then go back to the video, so I didn't see the first few seconds originally.

LOL!! I DO TOO, ....and I'M THE ONE POSTING!!

 

[UmpJeff]

Atta boy, James! #2

[MadMax]

With you guys pointing it (Kershaw's step back first, then throw to Ellis) out, I couldn't figure out how he knew to do that while in that weird stretch position of his like that...

Adrian Gonzalez (F3) tipped him off.

Now, I pose two hypothetical questions based on this scenario...

A) Say Kershaw did not step off, and that's a pitch coming in. Ellis steps forward, and PU reads that as CI. Gomez is coming in headlong. How should an umpire make a/the call?

B) Kershaw does step off, but the batter doesn't see that and sees this as a pitch incoming, so he stays in the box. The throw makes contact with... 1) his body, or 2) his bat... What do we (the umpires) call / rule / judge?

[noumpere]

With you guys pointing it (Kershaw's step back first, then throw to Ellis) out, I couldn't figure out how he knew to do that while in that weird stretch position of his like that...

Adrian Gonzalez (F3) tipped him off.

Now, I pose two hypothetical questions based on this scenario...

A) Say Kershaw did not step off, and that's a pitch coming in. Ellis steps forward, and PU reads that as CI. Gomez is coming in headlong. How should an umpire make a/the call?

B) Kershaw does step off, but the batter doesn't see that and sees this as a pitch incoming, so he stays in the box. The throw makes contact with... 1) his body, or 2) his bat... What do we (the umpires) call / rule / judge?

A) As soon as F2 catches the ball, "Time" (but, you could put that later, if you want).  "That's CI.  And a Balk.  "You, score; you (if there were any other runners) advance); you (to the batter), first."

 

B) 1) Nothing, unless it's intentional. 2) Interference with a throw

[stkjock]

Adrian Gonzalez (F3) tipped him off.

if you look at the vid 1:00 mark, you can see Gozo point at 3rd 

[MadMax]

if you look at the vid 1:00 mark, you can see Gozo point at 3rd 

Yup, that's what I noticed, @stkjock.

Got that, @noumpere... I was interested in how an umpire would call it... Would you signal it (likely by pointing) and let the "play" resolve, or would you signal it as "loud" and demonstratively as possible, and try to get the participants to stop? I realize the "play" is not a valid play at that point, but it is probably safest to the participants if it resolves like one... What would be your advice?

[stkjock]

Yup, that's what I noticed, @stkjock.

 

 

ahh, I mis-read you're comment above.  

[Mizzou2016]

A) As soon as F2 catches the ball, "Time" (but, you could put that later, if you want).  "That's CI.  And a Balk.  "You, score; you (if there were any other runners) advance); you (to the batter), first."

 

B) 1) Nothing, unless it's intentional. 2) Interference with a throw

If the balk occurs, it can't also be CI can it?


CI is enforced if the batter, does not advance to at least first base.

A balk is enforced if the batter and all runners do not advance at least one base (with the exception of an overthrow or WP; 6.02 AR)

In this case, the batter does not advance - so the CI award would be B1 to 1st, all other runners return TOP. 

The balk award would be no pitch, and R3 advances home.

Would the balk nullify the CI since it is a delayed dead ball? If you enforce the CI, then the Batter has advanced but the runner hasn't. If you enforce the Balk, then the runner advances but the batter doesn't. 

Which supersedes the other? I feel like I'm going in circles thinking about CI and Balk on the same play. 



The batter has to make a reasonable effort to vacate the area around home for a play on a runner at home, otherwise it's batter interference. I think intent would govern both of these situations. 

[scrounge]

At least under Fed, if a runner is stealing on a CI, then they would be awarded the base they're advancing towards, if I recall correctly. So if Kershaw didn't step  off and CI was awarded, you'd have the batter on 1B and the runner given home in a high school game.

 

[krwill96]

@StevenCraze the catcher's interference and balk are both enforced. I know it doesn't seem right but this is the case when you have a squeeze play  

6.01 (g) (old rule 7.07) Interference With Squeeze Play or Steal of Home

If, with a runner on third base and trying to score by means of a squeeze play or a steal, the catcher or any other fielder steps on, or in front of home base without possession of the ball, or touches the batter or his bat, the pitcher shall be charged with a balk, the batter shall be awarded first base on the interference and the ball is dead 

[basejester]

I'm lost on the flow of this conversation.  If he doesn't step off, the rule is 7.07/6.01:

7.07 If, with a runner on third base and trying to score by means of a squeeze play or a
steal, the catcher or any other fielder steps on, or in front of home base without possession
of the ball, or touches the batter or his bat, the pitcher shall be charged with a balk, the bat-
ter shall be awarded first base on the interference and the ball is dead.

[grayhawk]

The ONLY time there would be a difference in the result of this play (with F1 not stepping off) between OBR and Fed is when you have R2 and R3 only, with R2 NOT stealing.

Fed:  Catcher's obstruction.  R3 is awarded home on the CO.  R2 stays put since he wasn't stealing.  The batter would be awarded first.

OBR:  Catcher's interference and a balk.  R3 is awarded home on the CI since he was stealing.  R2 is awarded third on the balk.  The batter is awarded first on the CI.

Any other combination of runners with R3 stealing home and CI/CO being called would result in all runners moving up in Fed whether they were stealing or not (since they would be forced by the batter's award of first.

[noumpere]

 

Got that, @noumpere... I was interested in how an umpire would call it... Would you signal it (likely by pointing) and let the "play" resolve, or would you signal it as "loud" and demonstratively as possible, and try to get the participants to stop? I realize the "play" is not a valid play at that point, but it is probably safest to the participants if it resolves like one... What would be your advice?

Once F2 catches the ball, there's no "play" to resolve.  Kill it (if you can).

[grayhawk]

Once F2 catches the ball, there's no "play" to resolve.  Kill it (if you can).

Barring third world plays, I agree with this.  Here's a TWP where killing it on the catch might be incorrect:

R2 and R3, no outs and no count.  Both are stealing and F2 steps in front of the plate to take the pitch.  F2 catches the ball and the momentum of R3's legal slide causes the ball to get away from F2 towards the backstop.  R2 never stopped running and is safe on a close play at home.

The OC now has two options.  If CO is enforced, thenR3 scores, the batter is awarded first and R2 has to return to third.  If he takes the result of the play, then 2 runs are in and the batter is still at bat.

Okay, now back to the real world...

[Richvee]

Barring third world plays, I agree with this.  Here's a TWP where killing it on the catch might be incorrect:

R2 and R3, no outs and no count.  Both are stealing and F2 steps in front of the plate to take the pitch.  F2 catches the ball and the momentum of R3's legal slide causes the ball to get away from F2 towards the backstop.  R2 never stopped running and is safe on a close play at home.

The OC now has two options.  If CO is enforced, thenR3 scores, the batter is awarded first and R2 has to return to third.  If he takes the result of the play, then 2 runs are in and the batter is still at bat.

Okay, now back to the real world...

Not all that far fetched. If the OC takes the result of the play, is the pitched called a ball or strike?

[noumpere]

I don't think there's any option on this play:

 

(g) (7.07) Interference With Squeeze Play or Steal

of Home

If, with a runner on third base and trying to score by means of a

squeeze play or a steal, the catcher or any other fielder steps on, or

in front of home base without possession of the ball, or touches the

batter or his bat, the pitcher shall be charged with a balk, the batter

shall be awarded first base on the interference and the ball is dead.

[grayhawk]

There are other rules that state "the ball is dead" as well when it's delayed dead.