BU Indicator

[catsbackr]

​That's fine, except that some associations (like ours) require base umpires to carry an indicator.

​Carry it, just leave it in your pocket.

[zm1283]

​As you are a lawyer, you know quite well that it is not a fact.  It is your opinion that you formed based on those that you have been around (a relatively small sample size).  A judge would not accept it as fact and you know it.

ASA (that similar sport that some of you don't acknowledge) requires BU to sweep the pitching plate with a plate brush between innings.  ​

And ASA is a softball organization. There are lots of things softball does that any competently-trained baseball umpire wouldn't think of doing. 

[Welpe]

ASA (that similar sport that some of you don't acknowledge) requires BU to sweep the pitching plate with a plate brush between innings.  

​There's a practical requirement for that though and that's for better judging leaps and crow hops. Not really an issue in baseball.

[MidAmUmp]

​1. So, does the BU even have to concern himself with the count at all ? If they memorize it, fine, but if they lose the count, no one cares ?
2. If F6 asks BU for the count, is the proper reaction not to answer the question, signal your partner and have him announce the count ? even though you know that the count is 2-2, let PU announce 2-2 ?
3. Is the reason that some BU's don't use an indicator because they don't concern themselves with keeping the count ?

If BU should know the count at all times, I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with the way they achieve that task. It's like like being looked down upon because an umpire isn't wearing poly-wools or his sunglasses aren't Oakley's. That kind of snobbery is a "them problem", not a "me problem". And if my evaluator makes it a "me problem" and that's the worst "me problem" on his list, then "me happy".

​There's a larger issue here... it's called paying attention. First, the plate umpire should be verbally and vocally giving the count after the 3rd and 5th pitch. So 2-1/1-2/3-0 & 3-2 the plate umpire needs to give the count. If he gives it more, fine. What are you as the base umpire doing that you can't remember in your head 3 pitches (or less)? If you have a steal, back pick or something else that you lose track of the count, there's absolutely nothing wrong with telling a player (if they ask the count) that you don't know...but in doing so, I'd explain why you don't know. And I don't see anything wrong with asking the plate umpire at that time what the count is. But, you shouldn't be doing that every inning...

If the plate umpire isn't doing a good job giving the count on a frequent basis, then carry yourself in there in between innings and tell him there are folks out there relying on him.

At my clinic when I discuss mental preparation, one thing I say every year is "recognize the relevant cues in your environment." One of those would be paying attention to the plate umpire when he gives the count, and retaining that information.

Usually, if a player (pitcher) asks me the count I tell them to ask the plate umpire...and I tell them he has the official count -OR- I tell them to ask their coach (if it's an offensive player). What if you tell them the wrong count? Let's say you have R1 & R2 with 2 outs. R2 asks you the count, you tell him 3-2. He's off on the pitch because it's 3-2-2. The actual count is 2-2 and R2 is out at 3rd. What then???

I wrote earlier, and I don't mean this as "big timing" anyone, at the level I work the count on the scoreboard is very seldom incorrect and when it is the plate umpire corrects it. The plate umpire gives the count frequently. Players pay attention to what's going on, know the count and don't ask what the count is very often, and 99% of the time I'm engaged in the game, know what's going on and know the count without the need of an indicator. So, if at the level you work, you find that the plate umpire loses track of the count frequently, the scoreboard might as well be turned off, many players are constantly asking you for the count, and you can't remember the count in your head, then carry an indicator. I don't think it's the end all for a base umpire to carry one, as long as you do so inconspicuously. If you're out there fidgeting with it, constantly looking at it, holding it in front of your face as your roll it over, then you look like a schmuck...and that goes for plate umpires, too.

Edited April 30, 2015 by MidAmUmp

[ZebraStripes]

​There's a larger issue here... it's called paying attention. First, the plate umpire should be verbally and vocally giving the count after the 3rd and 5th pitch. So 2-1/1-2/3-0 & 3-2 the plate umpire needs to give the count. If he gives it more, fine. What are you as the base umpire doing that you can't remember in your head 3 pitches (or less)? If you have a steal, back pick or something else that you lose track of the count, there's absolutely nothing wrong with telling a player (if they ask the count) that you don't know...but in doing so, I'd explain why you don't know. And I don't see anything wrong with asking the plate umpire at that time what the count is. But, you shouldn't be doing that every inning...

 

​Behind the plate, I try to give the count afte 3 pitches and when one of my count gets to 3 balls or 2 strikes for the first time.  Also after an foul ball before putting the ball back into play.  The foul ball one does get tedious after 4 or 5 consecutive foul balls.  

[lawump]

​As you are a lawyer, you know quite well that it is not a fact.  It is your opinion that you formed based on those that you have been around (a relatively small sample size).  A judge would not accept it as fact and you know it.

ASA (that similar sport that some of you don't acknowledge) requires BU to sweep the pitching plate with a plate brush between innings.  

​Um, yes, I did not mean "fact" in a legal sense.  I said it to make a point on an umpire website.  With that said, I might have a good shot (though not a slam dunk) of being found to be an "expert witness" if I was ever proffered as one in the area of umpiring...so, a judge (or whomever the fact-finder was (jury?)) might just accept it, yet.  But I readily admit that I don't litigate if I can help it.  (Not all lawyers do.)  I enjoy the transactional work too much...it let's me umpire a lot more.

I have worked high school baseball in three states, college baseball in the southeast, or pro baseball throughout the country for the last 18 seasons so my sample size is not as small as your post implies.  Bringing an indicator on the bases remains, in my experience, an extremely reliable indicator of umpiring ability (which I readily admit is in itself subjectively determined).  As I said in my first post, whether carrying an indicator on the bases and being a lousy umpire (BTW, "smittys" usually have an indicator on the bases, now that I think about it) is mere coincidence or not...I do not know.

As for the ASA...do whatever you want in softball.  For the baseball umpires reading/participating in this thread I would say that if you want to look like a softball umpire wear blue pants or carry an indicator on the bases.  I'm guessing that most baseball umpires do not want to look like a softball umpire.  They are two separate and different sports.  The comparison is no more apt than comparing tennis to table tennis or maybe even polo to water polo (okay, I admit I'm exaggerating somewhat to make a point).  I'm not slamming softball.  But I am saying earnestly that one does not want to look like a softball umpire on a baseball field played by shaving aged players, any more than one wants to look like an NHL referee while on a baseball field.

 

[lawump]

I love it when something happens in a game that is relevant to an on-going thread.  This actually happened tonight.  Three-man crew.  I'm at first.  First baseman asks me, "what's the count blue?" 

I said, "I don't know."  I then turned away from the first baseman and looked toward the plate umpire and asked, "Mike, what do you got?"

Mike said, "three and two."  I turned to the first baseman and said, "three and two."  He replied, "thanks, blue."

It took all of three seconds.

Now, in reading this post, someone might say, "if you had an indicator you would not have had to ask your partner and it would have only taken one second."  To which I would reply, "but what if I gave the first baseman a count that was different than what my partner had?  (And it is his job to keep the count...not mine)."  Answer: possible sh!thouse.

 

[Jimurray]

I love it when something happens in a game that is relevant to an on-going thread.  This actually happened tonight.  Three-man crew.  I'm at first.  First baseman asks me, "what's the count blue?" 

I said, "I don't know."  I then turned away from the first baseman and looked toward the plate umpire and asked, "Mike, what do you got?"

Mike said, "three and two."  I turned to the first baseman and said, "three and two."  He replied, "thanks, blue."

It took all of three seconds.

Now, in reading this post, someone might say, "if you had an indicator you would not have had to ask your partner and it would have only taken one second."  To which I would reply, "but what if I gave the first baseman a count that was different than what my partner had?  (And it is his job to keep the count...not mine)."  Answer: possible sh!thouse.

 

So if there was a check swing with a DTK you wouldn't have known to give a "voluntary strike"? I thought even though you don't use a clicker  you should have a method to know the count. Is not using a clicker equal to not caring about the count? But belay that thought, 3,2 you already knew because your PU religiously gives all odd counts. I'm confused.

[lawump]

Good point, Jimurray.  Actually, it is because I never give the count as the base umpire when asked.  I always ask the plate guy...because what if I give something different than what he has?  Tonight I told the first baseman "I don't know,"  (which is true, I actually said that.  Hence, why it was in my post above.).  More often when asked I'll say, "hold on, I'll check."  Usually, I know the count without a problem...but I still always ask the plate umpire when asked by a player.  It is his job to keep the "official" count not mine.  (If he loses it, of course, we'll get together and I'll help him.)

[Jimurray]

 

​

Good point, Jimurray.  Actually, it is because I never give the count as the base umpire when asked.  I always ask the plate guy...because what if I give something different than what he has?  Tonight I told the first baseman "I don't know,"  (which is true, I actually said that.  Hence, why it was in my post above.).  More often when asked I'll say, "hold on, I'll check."  Usually, I know the count without a problem...but I still always ask the plate umpire when asked by a player.  It is his job to keep the "official" count not mine.  (If he loses it, of course, we'll get together and I'll help him.)

​I carry a clicker (used for effect) mostly for the outs. If I'm asked I will refer to the PU. As my sister in law once told me, when she responded to an irate customer who asked if her company only hired retards, well we need jobs also. I'm an umpire and I need a clicker. BTW, I flew jets. ATC knew never to give us more than two things to remember in a row and we wrote it all down anyway and had a bunch of ways to inscribe things in the cockpit.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Jimurray

[UmpJeff]

...clicker...

[LMSANS]

Good point, Jimurray.  Actually, it is because I never give the count as the base umpire when asked.  I always ask the plate guy...because what if I give something different than what he has?  Tonight I told the first baseman "I don't know,"  (which is true, I actually said that.  Hence, why it was in my post above.).  More often when asked I'll say, "hold on, I'll check."  Usually, I know the count without a problem...but I still always ask the plate umpire when asked by a player.  It is his job to keep the "official" count not mine.  (If he loses it, of course, we'll get together and I'll help him.)

​"...this guy working first base doesn't even know what the count is..."

Just sayin'

[clasonater]

If I am working the plate I will never ever rely on my partner for the count.  If we get in a situation where I screwed up, I am not going to drag him into it.  I'll wear it.  When I am in the field and my partner comes to me, well get together.  Ill never shout it across the field. If my partner in the field whips out a brush to clean off a base or the rubber that brush becomes my property for the remainder of the game. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by clasonater

[MidAmUmp]

If my partner in the field whips out a brush to clean off a base or the rubber that brush becomes my property for the remainder of the game. 

​ I think I love you

[Tksjewelry]

Why would someone take a plate brush when BUing?!?! That one I don't get at all! 

[DVA7130]

Why would someone take a plate brush when BUing?!?! That one I don't get at all! 

​Same reason they would bring an indicator, smitty LOL

[ElkOil]

​Same reason they would bring an indicator, smitty LOL

​They'd clean a base with their clicker?  That's just silly.

[clasonater]

​ I think I love you

​Awe thanks

Why would someone take a plate brush when BUing?!?! That one I don't get at all! 

​The softball association around here requires it, so we get a bunch of old fogeys with bad habits and a few young guys that think they are being proactive.  Its funny though, whenever they make a call, coaches always walk out and ask them to get help.  There might be a correlation. 

[kylehutson]

Why would someone take a plate brush when BUing?!?! That one I don't get at all! 

OK, I'll admit it. Until I read this thread, I brought one, and occasionally used it. Why? Because during one of my first games the PU asked me why I wasn't doing this and told me it was my job to brush off the pitching rubber between innings.

I hereby promise to never bring my brush when I'm BU again.

[Just-Call-It]

I always bring an indicator with me on base assignments... and it stays in my pocket. I got in the habit of doing that the first time a partner on the dish said to me after the plate meeting that he left his in the car... I always carry two when I have the dish, I broke one in the middle of a game one time when a player tossed me the ball and of course his throw was off and had to catch in with the left hand - broke that damn 3 ring on impact.

[MadMax]

OK, I'll admit it. Until I read this thread, I brought one, and occasionally used it. Why? Because during one of my first games the PU asked me why I wasn't doing this and told me it was my job to brush off the pitching rubber between innings.

I hereby promise to never bring my brush when I'm BU again.

​AAIIIIEEEEEEEGGGGHHHH!!!! YOU!! You worked with a dyed-in-the-wool softball umpire!!

Either you got completely bamboozled by a veteran who just wanted to give a hazer on a rookie, or you actually worked with a softball umpire. Oh wow. Your job? I'm... absolutely speechless. Lemme tell you, when I was swindled pleaded begged requested to work a softball tournament here, I only did one adjustment – one – to my umpire routine, and that was to do a hammer call for a strike, because my colleagues (who do softball as well as baseball) were of the opinion that my side-shooting, bellowing, signature strike mechanic would not fit in for softball. Thus, I left the "gun in the rack" and did the hammer¹. Otherwise, I (still) did not bring a plate brush or an indicator out to the bases, and I did not brush off any bases or pitching plates during the entire weekend. Most of the girls didn't even slide enough to put any dirt upon a base, and when it needed to be cleaned off, I just used my foot.

When Baseball Umpires Call Strikes, it's all about the BUCKs... when Softball Umpires Call Strikes, it all just plain...

1- It felt really weird. 

[spiritump]

​So your reasoning to not carry an indicator on the bases is that they don't carry one in 3/4-man systems and the worst umpire in the world can't keep his eyes off his indicator as an examples of why everyone should not use an indicator on the bases ? How about giving us a sound mechanical reason why we shouldn't. I think the only reason you shouldn't use an indicator on the bases is if you have to look at it during a live ball situation. I have notched mine and don't ever put my eyes on it, even when I'm on the dish (and I can chew gum and walk at the same time).

I think not carrying an indicator on the bases is an old/outdated concept and the reasons for it are no longer valid. The indicator is a tool, use it where you think its appropriate.

The best reason not to  use a indicator on the bases is because "you look like a horses ass with one in your hand"

[ElkOil]

The best reason not to  use a indicator on the bases is because "you look like a horses ass with one in your hand"

​It's just an indiclickinator.  It's not that bad.

[woodiemiller]

If you want to look like an amateur umpire, carry an indicator (and/or a brush and/or wear a ball bag) on the bases.  If you want to be one step closer to looking like a professional umpire working amateur baseball, leave the indicator in the locker room. 

I only work high school, legion and college.  On the rare occasions when I had a partner take an indicator out on the bases with him, I correctly guessed the quality of his umpiring ability (or lack thereof) early in the first inning.  That's a fact.

You all can flame me, rant me, scream at me...whatever you want...but having an indicator on the bases is one of the strongest indicators (pardon the pun) that I am working with a weak partner.  Whether one is causative of the other, or whether it is coincidence, I don't know.  I just know it is a fact.

It is the plate umpire's responsibility to keep track of balls and strikes.  Let him do his job.  If a player on the field asks me (as base umpire) the count, I just signal (or ask) my partner to give the count.

​Another strong "indication" of a weak partner is usually when a partner works the plate wearing GRAY ball bags.

[kylehutson]

​AAIIIIEEEEEEEGGGGHHHH!!!! YOU!! You worked with a dyed-in-the-wool softball umpire!!

Either you got completely bamboozled by a veteran who just wanted to give a hazer on a rookie, or you actually worked with a softball umpire.

​I'm willing to bet it was the latter. We have a lot of guys around here that do both.