How to do a proper appeal

[Moe]

So I had a situation with my partner yesterday. 2man system, runner at first, 18+ league. I am PU. Ball was hit to outfield, I had the runner rounding third and coming home. He missed third on his way. When the ball was sent back to the pitcher, he threw the ball to his third baseman who was standing on third saying they want to appeal. I called the runner out, and the run doesn't score. At the end of the inning, my partner was talking to the pitcher and third baseman on "how to do a proper appeal". He said that the pitcher had to be on the rubber, come set, step off, then make the throw, so the appeal they did wasn't valid and should not have been granted. I said that that doesn't fit with my memory on how to do an appeal properly, my partner has been umpiring for around 30+ years, so I trust him, and two) if the appeal should not be granted, why didn't he come to me and say that so I wouldn't call a runner out and take a run off the board.

 

I have two questions:

 

1) If the ball is not dead, does the pitcher need to be on the rubber then step off to initiate an appeal? I thought he had to be on the rubber just to make the ball live so he could step off and make the throw.

 

2) Should/would you approach me if you believe that I granted an illegal appeal, or would you let the call stand and basically tell the players that they did it wrong?

[StrikeDavis]

OBR or FED rules?

[JaxRolo]

1. Ball not dead. No need to get on the rubber. If it is dead-then yes.

In Fed dead ball appeals are legal. No need to get on rubber.

[Jimurray]

OBR or FED rules?

In the OP why would it matter?

1. The appeal was done correctly. But you infer something in your question that is not correct. The pitcher does not have to step off to throw to a base to make an appeal. It's a good idea to do so for a number of reasons but it is not required.

[maven]

This is a myth.

 

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

 

The rigamarole is part of the "make the ball live" procedure, not the appeal procedure. If the ball never becomes dead, there is no need even for F1 to touch it. Throw it right to the base to appeal the miss. True also for live-ball appeals in FED.

 

FED adds the option of a dead-ball verbal appeal, where the defense (coach or player) simply states the nature of the appeal.

 

To the OP: ask your partner to show you where in 7.10 it requires that F1 step off and throw to a base. It ain't there.

[Moe]

My partner said that part of the appeal is the pitcher on the rubber, stepping off, verbally saying "I want to appeal at third" then throwing it to third. He also said that if the third baseman had dropped the ball, they loose their appeal, I don't think that is true either, because there was no other play: I thought he could just pick it up and touch third. But that might just be me. 

18+ league with OBA (Ontario Baseball Association) rules; OBR with a few amendments, but nothing big. 

[StrikeDavis]

@ Jimurray  Apparently I cannot read.  It would not matter.

[ricka56]

My partner said that part of the appeal is the pitcher on the rubber, stepping off, verbally saying "I want to appeal at third" then throwing it to third.

 

my partner has been umpiring for around 30+ years, so I trust him

 

I haven't been working that long, but I don't think that this has ever been the rule.

If a coach made that claim, I would tell him that I know for a fact that he never read that in any rule book.

Your partner doesn't have any excuse for believing this myth.

 

Be very careful trusting this guy with rule applications.

If your rule app conflicts with his rule app, you should stand your ground.

[maven]

My partner said that part of the appeal is the pitcher on the rubber, stepping off, verbally saying "I want to appeal at third" then throwing it to third. He also said that if the third baseman had dropped the ball, they lose their appeal, 

 

More myth. The appeal procedure is in 7.10. Just print him a copy or something.

[noumpere]

So I had a situation with my partner yesterday. 2man system, runner at first, 18+ league. I am PU. Ball was hit to outfield, I had the runner rounding third and coming home. He missed third on his way. When the ball was sent back to the pitcher, he threw the ball to his third baseman who was standing on third saying they want to appeal. I called the runner out, and the run doesn't score. At the end of the inning, my partner was talking to the pitcher and third baseman on "how to do a proper appeal". He said that the pitcher had to be on the rubber, come set, step off, then make the throw, so the appeal they did wasn't valid and should not have been granted. I said that that doesn't fit with my memory on how to do an appeal properly, my partner has been umpiring for around 30+ years, so I trust him, and two) if the appeal should not be granted, why didn't he come to me and say that so I wouldn't call a runner out and take a run off the board.

 

I have two questions:

 

1) If the ball is not dead, does the pitcher need to be on the rubber then step off to initiate an appeal? I thought he had to be on the rubber just to make the ball live so he could step off and make the throw.

 

2) Should/would you approach me if you believe that I granted an illegal appeal, or would you let the call stand and basically tell the players that they did it wrong?

There's your problem, right there.

[Dean]

1. been answered above.

2. Don't let your partner eff up a pro-testable rule. (unless he insists and over rules you on HIS call-not your call - then let him die with it)

[Jocko]

My partner said that part of the appeal is the pitcher on the rubber, stepping off, verbally saying "I want to appeal at third" then throwing it to third. He also said that if the third baseman had dropped the ball, they loose their appeal, I don't think that is true either, because there was no other play: I thought he could just pick it up and touch third. But that might just be me.

18+ league with OBA (Ontario Baseball Association) rules; OBR with a few amendments, but nothing big.

think of it the same as a runner leaving early on a caught fly ball. Does F1 have to get the ball, step on the runner, come set and step off? Nope. F8 can just throw to 2B (or whichever base they're appealing) and the out is recorded. Also, no verbal is necessary IF you know they're appealing and the nature of the appeal. The only time verbal is necessary is if you're not certain they're appealing, or in the case of multiple appeals.

Your partner is an idiot. He has 30+ years of 2 years experience. There's a huge difference.

And as for getting together, I'm not sure if appeal procedure is protestable. And since it's evident that your partner didn't have an effing clue what he was talking about, I would have ignored him anyway if he came to me to "inform" me that they did it wrong.

On the F5 dropping the ball and losing the appeal, he was probably regurgitating incorrectly if the ball went into DBT.

[CricketChapman]

This is a myth.

 

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal.  F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.

[ALStripes17]

This is a myth.

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal. F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.

Would an appeal be under the umbrella of "purpose of making a play" in regards to not calling a balk for F1 throwing to an unoccupied base?

Of course, in nearly all instances, F1 will disengage, but I am curious.

[Richvee]

 

 

This is a myth.

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal. F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.

 

Would an appeal be under the umbrella of "purpose of making a play" in regards to not calling a balk for F1 throwing to an unoccupied base?

Of course, in nearly all instances, F1 will disengage, but I am curious.

 

FED 2-29-6

ART. 6 . . . A defensive appeal of a runner failing to touch a base or tag up is not a play.

 

So..at least in FED...Can F1 step directly to a base from the rubber to appeal a missed base/runner leaving early? 

[maven]

 

This is a myth.

 

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal.  F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.

 

 

You sure about that?

 

"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play." 7.10

[maven]

 

 

 

This is a myth.

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal. F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.

 

Would an appeal be under the umbrella of "purpose of making a play" in regards to not calling a balk for F1 throwing to an unoccupied base?

Of course, in nearly all instances, F1 will disengage, but I am curious.

 

FED 2-29-6

ART. 6 . . . A defensive appeal of a runner failing to touch a base or tag up is not a play.

 

So..at least in FED...Can F1 step directly to a base from the rubber to appeal a missed base/runner leaving early? 

 

 

No, and not in OBR, either.

[CricketChapman]

 

 

This is a myth.

 

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal.  F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.

 

 

You sure about that?

 

"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play." 7.10

 

PBUC 8.7

"It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.)"

[Richvee]

 

 

 

This is a myth.

 

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal.  F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.

 

 

You sure about that?

 

"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play." 7.10

 

PBUC 8.7

"It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.)"

 

interesting. That contradicts 7.10 from where I stand. 

[Jimurray]

This is a myth.

 

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal.  F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.

 

You sure about that?

 

"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play." 7.10

PBUC 8.7

"It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.)"

interesting. That contradicts 7.10 from where I stand.

I'm confused. What contradicts 7.10? Are you and Maven arguing that the pitcher has to step off? BTW, in softball the pitcher does have to step off. In baseball, as evidenced by my original post, it's a good idea to step off because of the above.

[ALStripes17]

This is a myth.

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal. F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.

You sure about that?

"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play." 7.10

PBUC 8.7

"It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.)"

interesting. That contradicts 7.10 from where I stand.

I'm confused. What contradicts 7.10? Are you and Maven arguing that the pitcher has to step off? BTW, in softball the pitcher does have to step off. In baseball, as evidenced by my original post, it's a good idea to step off because of the above.

Softball also doesn't have balks?

[Richvee]

 

 

 

 

 

This is a myth.

 

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal.  F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.  

You sure about that?

 

"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play." 7.10 PBUC 8.7

"It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.)" interesting. That contradicts 7.10 from where I stand.

I'm confused. What contradicts 7.10? Are you and Maven arguing that the pitcher has to step off? BTW, in softball the pitcher does have to step off. In baseball, as evidenced by my original post, it's a good idea to step off because of the above.

 

I was. Until you posted the PBUC interp. 

I was just following the logic. 

 

1st. Take 8.05(d)

The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied

base, except for the purpose of making a play;

 

Then, let's look at 7.10

....An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.....

 

To me, that makes it pretty clear throwing to an unoccupied base to appeal a missed base would be a balk with runners on. However PBUC says it's not. That seems contradictory to me. 

[Jimurray]

This is a myth.

 

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal.  F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.  

You sure about that?

 

"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play." 7.10 PBUC 8.7

"It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.)" interesting. That contradicts 7.10 from where I stand.

I'm confused. What contradicts 7.10? Are you and Maven arguing that the pitcher has to step off? BTW, in softball the pitcher does have to step off. In baseball, as evidenced by my original post, it's a good idea to step off because of the above.

NCAA has some interesting language that makes you think the pitcher has to step off until you read the whole rule:

"(10) It is not a balk for a pitcher, while in contact with the rubber (does not step back), to throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making an appeal play."

I submit that all baseball codes subscribe to this.

[Jimurray]

This is a myth.

 

For non-FED baseball, the ball must be live to make an appeal. If the ball becomes dead, F1 must get the ball and take the rubber before the PU can make it live. Then he can step off and throw to the base to make the appeal.

At this point, F1 can also step and throw directly to a base while in contact with the rubber, provided it is for the purpose of the appeal.  F1 is not even required to step off once the ball is live again.  

You sure about that?

 

"An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play." 7.10 PBUC 8.7

"It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.)" interesting. That contradicts 7.10 from where I stand.

I'm confused. What contradicts 7.10? Are you and Maven arguing that the pitcher has to step off? BTW, in softball the pitcher does have to step off. In baseball, as evidenced by my original post, it's a good idea to step off because of the above.

I was. Until you posted the PBUC interp. 

I was just following the logic. 

 

1st. Take 8.05(d)

The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied

base, except for the purpose of making a play;

 

Then, let's look at 7.10

....An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.....

 

To me, that makes it pretty clear throwing to an unoccupied base to appeal a missed base would be a balk with runners on. However PBUC says it's not. That seems contradictory to me. 

And that's why I advise anyone who asks that it is a good idea to step off even though it it not required because you never know what you will get.

[Richvee]

Gotta love this site! Yesterday I may have balked this.