Why isn't that a balk?

[Sayhey]

Tuesday night game in Pittsburg. Cubs lead 7-3 Bolton of ninth. Ramirez, the Cubs reliever is in contact with thevpitcher's plate when he steps directly toward 1st base and throws the baseball into the ground not more than 10 feet from himself and the ball rolls weakly and without proper aim toward short right field where the Cubs 1st baseman picks the ball up and obviously has no play, since he is 20 feet from 1st base and was positioned behind R-1 when the pitcher turned and saw him off the bag and drilled an extant throw into the ground, which rolled weakly toward short right field. I saw a clip only on M.L.B. Network. No one called a balk and a ball was awarded to the batter. The umpires huddled up with the Cubs manager and they were smiling and laughing. Anyone see this game and not just the mlb network clip? Can you tell me why this is not a balk? Pitcher is required to throw to the bag when in contact with the pitchers plate
This throw lacked aim and momentum. The 1st baseman had no play. MLB network reported that a throw toward short right field was called a ball

[umpcoachfather]

why would it be a balk? on a bad throw?  Did they score it an error?  Did R1 get 2nd?  The umps probably said, "it cant be intentional, why the hell would he do that." 

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Q: Did the runner advance?

[Thunderheads]

why would it be a balk? on a bad throw?  Did they score it an error?  Did R1 get 2nd?  The umps probably said, "it cant be intentional, why the hell would he do that." 

because it is ....................

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v33606493

[JaxRolo]

4 Umpires missed it the 4 umpires got it right.

 

Has to be the most delayed balk call ever.

[bam]

That's a balk - F3 wasn't on or even near the bag. 

[maven]

Bad news for @grayhawk's interp...

[grayhawk]

Bad news for @grayhawk's interp...

 

I see your emoticon, but I would have balked it.  Clearly, no play was on.  F3 was as surprised as R1 that the pitcher threw over.

 

Edit:  And it's not my interp - it's Jim Evans'.

[Thunderheads]

 

Bad news for @grayhawk's interp...

 

I see your emoticon, but I would have balked it.  Clearly, no play was on.  F3 was as surprised as R1 that the pitcher threw over.

 

Edit:  And it's not my interp - it's Jim Evans'.

 

Ok, I give up...I don't see an interp from Grayhawk in this thread?

[grayhawk]

He's referring to my responses in a couple of other threads.

[Thunderheads]

He's referring to my responses in a couple of other threads.

great, that makes @maven 's response clear as mud!

[grayhawk]

 

He's referring to my responses in a couple of other threads.

great, that makes @maven 's response clear as mud!

 

 

Maybe this will clear it up:

 

http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/58302-throwing-to-an-unoccupied-base/?p=229289

[JaxRolo]

 

 

Bad news for @grayhawk's interp...

 

I see your emoticon, but I would have balked it.  Clearly, no play was on.  F3 was as surprised as R1 that the pitcher threw over.

 

Edit:  And it's not my interp - it's Jim Evans'.

 

Ok, I give up...I don't see an interp from Grayhawk in this thread?

 

Make sure you use the "search" feature! 

[pnewton]

What if the pitcher is able to make that ball roll to first base and not out to where F3 was playing off the bag?  In that case would we say it was just a bad throw? Ball would still have been thrown to the base.

[Sayhey]

Thanks for the video. I appreciate it. I only saw a mlb network highlight. Mlb showed the terrible throw and the crew laughing when talking to Cubs coach but they did not show R-1 being awarded 2nd base. I assumed they never called a balk. Big delay on the balk call but better to get it right. Forget about whether the 1st baseman had a play for a moment. When

An in contact pitcher throws toward 1st base it must go to the bag. To answer p newtons question- if the pitcher throws to the bag with no 1st baseman there it is not a balk

The pitcher fulfilled the legal requirement to throw to the bag. That may be why people De confused by Jim Evans. Jim is saying that the throw must go to the bag. If there is no play made that is ok because the pitcher threw the ball to the bag. You may be better off taking a balk than throwing the ball down the right field line. If the pitchers throw lacks momentum and direction to get to 1st base that is a balk. I am using a step and a reach as a measurement of what is legal. If the Cub 1st baseman could of taken a step and a reach and attempted a tag I am not calling a balk. If the throw rolls to 1st base I am not calling a balk. Jaska/ Roder calls this a "slip". This scenario is covered precisely by Jaska/Roder

We keep talking about this because it keeps happening and umpires can not get on the same page. 4 mlb umpires did not know the rule well enough to make the call

They must not own a copy of Jaska/Roder. Rick Roder was a triple A umpire and taught rules at Umpire school. He is sti used as a consultant for mlb.

[grayhawk]

You need to watch the Evans balk DVD again. Most of what you wrote is in opposition to what Jim teaches.

If the throw is to the bag, then no balk whether the fielder is there or not. We agree here.

If the throw is not to the bag, then Evans says it's legal if "a play is in the works." Nothing at all about a step and a reach, nor about momentum and direction to get to the base. Evans goes on to say, "the fact that the play isn't close is irrelevant." He also has a demonstration on this in the video with F3 catching the throw well off the bag (but breaking prior to F1's move) and saying its legal.

Perhaps you are mixing up J/R with Evans?

[Sayhey]

Thank you Grayhawk. I gave my copy of Jim's balk video away. I was always confused by Jim's video. A "play" is a tag or tag attempt of a player or a base. A "play" is also a throw to a teammate to retire a runner. A 1st baseman that begins to move toward a runner or bag but is still far off the bag and far away from the runner can not make a "play". Also, the pitcher must throw to the bag.

A 1st or now 3rd baseman may be moving toward the bag and runner to attempt a tag but if he is so far away that he can not reach the runner then no "play" has happened. Just a try of a play

I like Jim personally. I have been to 2 of his camps. A 5 day in Tuscon and a 2.5 day in Portland. I have a lot of respect for Jim.

Who am I to disagree with Jim Evans.

My head is spinning and I am a little frustrated

Perhaps we can talk more tomorrow

I sure would like to get this issue settled

Fortunate this scenario does not happen often

[grayhawk]

Thank you Grayhawk. I gave my copy of Jim's balk video away. I was always confused by Jim's video. A "play" is a tag or tag attempt of a player or a base. A "play" is also a throw to a teammate to retire a runner. A 1st baseman that begins to move toward a runner or bag but is still far off the bag and far away from the runner can not make a "play". Also, the pitcher must throw to the bag.

 

MLBUM defines what a play is, and includes the following:

 

"A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner.  This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner.  (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.)  A fake or feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted play."

 

Notice the lack of a defining how close the defensive player must be to the runner for it to be considered a play.  Also, the throw does not need to be to the bag.  It needs to be to the bag OR to the defensive player who is making a play on the runner.  Throwing to either F3 or F5 who is not making a play is interpreted as a "fake or feint" which is why it's a balk to those bases.

A 1st or now 3rd baseman may be moving toward the bag and runner to attempt a tag but if he is so far away that he can not reach the runner then no "play" has happened. Just a try of a play

 

Again, proximity to the runner is not the requirement.  We must judge whether or not a "play is in the works."  What I am looking for is some movement by F3 (or F5) prior to F1's move.  If it looks like the fielder was not in tune with the pitcher, and was surprised by the throw, then I have a balk unless the throw is to the bag.
 

Fortunate this scenario does not happen often

 

Agreed.  Also, there is a lot of judgment here, but what is important is how you explain your balk call (or lack thereof) to the coach.  This will go a long way to preventing a successful protest.

 

"Skip, in my judgment, there was no attempt to make a play, nor was the throw to the bag.  I have a balk."

"Skip, while the throw was not to the bag, in my judgment, the pitcher threw to the first baseman who was making a play on your runner.  I have a legal pickoff attempt."