Expanded Strike Zone for Little League

May 10, 2013

I am a little league coach for 10-12 year olds and I have a philosophical difference with the head umpire in our league and I want to get the opinions of those on the boards here. Recently our kid umpires (our league does not use adults for this age contrary to little league rules, but that's ok) stated telling us coaches during the pre-game meeting that "their" strike zone is from the armpits to the tops of the knees and a baseball's width on the inside and outside of the plate. My objection is that they are not enforcing the strike zone according to the rules of the game and they are giving the pitcher an unfair advantage over the hitter. Our league has a sheet of "local rules" and it does NOT say there is an expanded strike zone for this age. I ask why they are not enforcing the rules of the game and I get a BS answer about encouraging kids to swing and that they don't want a "walk fest."

My argument is that

1) the strike zone is clearly defined in the rule book

2) "encouraging" kids to swing is not the umpires job, that's a coaches job to teach the kids strike zone discipline

3) we as coaches are fully capable of removing a pitcher who has walked a few batters and that's not the concern of the umpire

4) an expanded strike zone only encourages kids to swing at more bad pitches, causing mor swinging k's and backwards k's

5) and umpires job is to Officiate the game fairly according to ALL the rules, not most of them

6) umpires cannot unilaterally decide to make up their own rules

Now I am catching hell because I am questioning this "unwritten" expanded strike zone philosophy and all I am asking is for all of our umpires to call the strike zone according to the definition in the rules!! Is this an unreasonable request?

Mike Prince · May 10, 2013

Don't get stuck on the "line to line comment" - there's 4 inches between the edge of the plate and the edge of the lines and the ball is 2.5 inches in diameter, so we are talking about one and a half inches on either side of the plate that you think your kids are getting screwed on (and just as importantly your pitcher is also getting).

I appreciate what you are saying but as we would say on this site you are "picking boogers" with this argument. And yes you have gone from asking a question to trying to pursue an argument (at least in my humble opinion)

Every level of formal umpire training I have ever received has instructed me to find my "book" strike zone and increase it by one ball in all directions. At the levels I call at this is widely accepted and I am judged on consistency of my zone way more than the physical size of it.

An "expanded zone" is not only a game managment tool, but a game enjoyment tool for those playing and watching. Bottom line, it is more about getting swings rather than speeding up a game. If we have a 2-hour time limit, we will usually be there for 2 hours so that is not an issue.

grayhawk · May 10, 2013

We had a guy in our league call the rule book zone in a minors game last season. There were 36 walks. Need I go on?

Dannytheman · May 10, 2013

My Jr Umps are told to always say the strike zone that is in the book, then I tell them armpits to knees and 1 ball inside and 2 balls outside on Minor divisions. My God, you can be there all night with MOST of those pitchers.

So to also answer the other question. The Adult who is Umpire responsible in our league is the Home Team Manager. Makes things interesting, but we cover the rules.

midtnump · May 10, 2013

Brian, 1st of all, hopefully your 9-10's are split from your 11-12's in league play. I call these age groups pretty tight, but if I stretch it any its important where I stretch it. What I mean is if I stretch it can the kid hit it. For example when I stretch it its not at the knees or armpits, its middle thigh up to the about the belly button. To me this is the meat area of the strike zone, its easily hitable. One ball inside and one ball outside. But from my perspective I have had to call some at the chin to shin range due to the kid on the mound just can't get regular strikes across the plate. I have been in your shoes, I coached both of my sons from 5 thru MS and I have always taught all my players how to hit an inside pitch or one slightly off the outside edge.

mstaylor · May 10, 2013

I personally do not go as high as LL says, but that has more to with keeping myself consistent. Your UIC is doing his youth umpires a disservice by teaching them to discuss their zone and to discuss any logic behind it. LL set the zone, he is having them call it. as noted by other posters, any portion of the ball touching the zone is a strike so a ball off means the ball is touching the zone.

The Right call is not a blog, it is an official hardcopy book printed and distributed by LL. Every league that is sanctioned by LL gets a certain number of copies. The RIM is a manual distributed by LL to members of the Umpire Registry and combines the baseball and softball rulebooks, The Right Call and comments by the LL instructors and is very much an official document.

bam · May 11, 2013

We had a guy in our league call the rule book zone in a minors game last season. There were 36 walks. Need I go on?

Hey! That's only three walks per half inning. A walk is as good as a hit, y'know!

BalkHawk · May 11, 2013

Is the LL zone bigger? Effin' A'.

As for 'your argument':

there is NO arguing balls and strikes so I didn't even glance.

HokieUmp · May 11, 2013

Let's get back to the point that I was originally trying to make... the strike zone has a definition as the space OVER the plate. What part of the rules say that an umpire can just call the zone from line to line? is line to line OVER the plate?

You may be getting too hung up on that, and perhaps people shouldn't be saying 'line to line.' But here's the thing: the white of the plate is 17", and the black adds an inch on each side. And yes, the black IS part of the plate, like it or not. Now, lay a baseball down on either side of the plate, such that the edge of the ball is over the edge of the black. THAT IS THE WIDTH OF "OVER THE PLATE." That makes the plate area 17+2+5 = 24 inches wide. We are not requesting that you enjoy, or like, that definition. We ARE asking that you stop griping about it.

The whole point is that the zone is the zone and umpires should respect the rules and not deviate from what the definition of the zone is. Now in reality, I am well aware that umpires are not perfect and balls and strikes are called outside the official zone and that's ok, I get it.

No, you don't. Those two sentences, boiled down, contradict each other. And you've spent at least three posts essentially saying that you don't want a single deviation from the written zone. (Even when the written zone for your particular ruleset is EXACTLY what the umpire in question said.)

We have a 2 hour time limit for every game, so why not ump the game by the book?

Okay, for one, they are, given the later evidence. But more importantly: because the way you seem to want it - with the entire ball being inside the defined box - the two games would Just. Suck. I've had partners at that level, with that skill set, call a zone that tight. It. Is. Awful. For me, for the players, for the parents, for the coaches. Everyone.

I'm glad none of you are my lawyer.

It's okay - you'd be a terrible client.

HokieUmp · May 11, 2013

The LL batter's box is 4" from the plate so any pitch that is completely within the lines is pretty much a strike from the inside/outside perspective. Do NOT go wider than that.

If the top of the ball is at the top of the shoulders then the bottom hit the strike zone. Do NOT go higher than that.

If the midpoint of the ball crosses at the kneecap, that's a strike. Do NOT go lower than that.

The plate is the same size as the grownups plate. BUT, the kids are smaller and have shorter bats. Anyone who wants a wider zone at this level is nuts or just a well meaning, myth believing dad coaching his kid through LL.

Learning strike zone discipline is an important part of learning to be an effective hitter. Swinging at anything within reach is BAD. Learn it now.

And there are definitely times when a walk is as good as a hit.

Especially if you're in the Mafia. Which, according to my Italian-American friends, doesn't actually exist. YMMV.

I get it, Rich, that zone discipline is important. But read my other post - I'm not necessarily advocating line to line, but we're talking about a zone that's 24 inches wide, even with 'one ball width' being used. Kid has arms, and can extend them. Kid has a 30+ inch bat. If he can't cover that width, he's either at the 'back' line, or he's alligator-arming it.

And yes, a walk's as good as a hit at times - we're not as inexperienced with "strateragy" as coach-types thing we are. But batters get told that ALL GAME LONG. It's as if that age-bracket coaching manual is saying "don't encourage your hitters to try, and leave it to the umpires to get on base."

Bruce Parker · May 11, 2013

Let me see if I can take your logic out of the realm of baseball to another sport I officiate, "basketball." The rule book is very clear as to the definition of traveling, and it doesn't change from age-to-age. What does change is the skill level of the boys and girls playing the game. I can honestly tell you that LL aged kids playing basketball, almost always violate the travelling rule every time up and down the court. If I called traveling every time it occurs, my whistle would be the centerpiece of the game. A good official will NOT officiate to the rule book but to the skill and level of the play of its participants. I will likely call a tighter game for the team with a skill level that is superior (my judgment). The team with players that are not so skilled will receive lots of grace and latitude And most parents are quite thankful that my whistle is not the only sound they hear all game long.

I would say that the same is true when I umpire a LL game. If a pitcher has the skill and ability to throw true strikes, I will call the game "by the book." But as soon as I determine (my judgment) that the pitchers are not so skilled my zone will adjust accordingly (not ridicuously) but to the level of the game. I think the arguments you are hearing from other umpires are not intentionally to blatantly disregard the "rule book" strike zone, but to call pitches that conform to the spirit of the game based on the level of performance that day. I can tell you that my strike zone for Johnny who plays on the traveling All-Star team will be tighter than my strike zone for Jimmy whose parents haven't yet figured out that he ought to be playing another sport .

Sports officials are very hard to come by these days. Few men are willing to take the abuse and criticisms that go with the job of displeasing someone on almost every call. Yet, we desperately need more umpires, officials, and referees throughout our nation. I'm grateful for the "kids" you use to umpire your ball games. They need to be affirmed and encouraged to continue to serve your league as umpires, and they need the support of the coaches and parents who attend and participate in your games. Please don't make the strike zone an issue that divides and destroys the ambitions of these young officials. From all the LL games I have watched, I would say the calls, "good" and "bad" are enjoyed and endured by both teams throughout the season. It's all part of the American Pastime that requires imperfect human judgment (players, coaches and umpires) to make it all come together for the good of the game! Thanks for helping coach our kids! I'm confident you will work through this issue in your mind and on the field so that "The Games" will go on in your community without the contention and strife I so often see on the field today. Angry coaches produce angry players (the kind that punch referees to their death). I urge you to stay positive and be pleased with whatever strike zone shows up that night. At least you might finish the game before the sun sets and tired parents and KIDS lose interest in the game.

Mike Prince · May 11, 2013

OK, so I had the plate on a 9/10 game (Cal Ripken, not LL) last night and did a bit of an experiment. I called a zone one ball wider than I normally do. I didn't go up, I didn't go down - just a bit wider. These were two teams who were in the bottom half of the league for sure and the game lasted 4 innings before we hit the time limit (both teams are used to getting run-ruled so this was a nice change).

So what happened? First off, I probably had 10-12 called third strikes - but all on pitches right down the chute. So conclusion 1 - more of these kids at this level are worried about getting hit by a pitch that they care about even attempting to hit the ball. Secondly, zero chirping on the zone, I was consistent and all they kept telling their guys was to go up there expecting strikes and be ready to hit. Conclusion 2 - no coach in his right mind is looking for a walk fest, it's hard to work on a kid's swing when he doesn't use it. Third, it was a very good game given the caliber of the two teams - I think there were 1-2 walks total and the game ended in a 3-3 tie. HT tied the game in the bottom of the 4th had the winning run on 3B and the batter went down looking for the final out. Conclusion 3 - the game was fair for both sides and a competitive game was more fun for everyone (including me)

Bottom line - this game would have been awful with a "book" strike zone IMO.

As FYI I was at our main field working concessions (flame away) with my 16 year old daughter this morning and I walked over to one of the fields on my way out where 2 of my good friends were the crew for a 9/10U game. One of the teams from the game last night was playing the undefeated first place team and hitting the ball all over the place. They were on their way to only their first or second win of the year. I didn't see any kids on either side walking to the plate looking for a walk in the inning or so that I watched.

JHSump · May 11, 2013

I had a similar experience the other day. 12U Dixie game, but weak teams and weak pitchers.

Game ended 4-3, after a full game (5 and a half, since HT was leading at that point). There is a "no new inning after 1:45" limit, but the full game took only 1:20.

One coach kept telling his players, "Be alert at the plate and be swinging, especially with two strikes. This umpire has a big strike zone." But, there were no complaints. The other coach (losing team) waved as I walked away at the end, and said, "Thank you, Blue." (No sarcasm apparent.)

I called strikes from line to line. Expanded a bit down and a bit up from my travel-ball/HS zone. Many pitchers were slow and even if caught by the catcher with fingers pointing down, they could be considered strikes as they passed the plate. Any pitch that bounced or any pitch where catcher touched the dirt, I called it a ball.

semper_fi_72 · May 11, 2013

Do Umpires at the LL World Series or Regional's expand the Strike Zone?

I believe that was asked.

The answer to that is, NO.

They don't have to.

They are now Umpiring games with the best players in the World.

Not Lil Johnny who was dropped off at the field for 3 hours of Free Baby Sitting by his Mommy.

Have you ever counted the parents in the stands during some games?

If there are 12 players on a team, there should be at least 12 Adults in the stands on that side of the field, not anything less.

mstaylor · May 11, 2013

Let me know how that works.

carolinablue · May 11, 2013

Do Umpires at the LL World Series or Regional's expand the Strike Zone?

I believe that was asked.

The answer to that is, NO.

They don't have to.

They are now Umpiring games with the best players in the World.

Not Lil Johnny who was dropped off at the field for 3 hours of Free Baby Sitting by his Mommy.

Have you ever counted the parents in the stands during some games?

If there are 12 players on a team, there should be at least 12 Adults in the stands on that side of the field, not anything less.

I disagree with this to some degree. I have seen them consitantly call strikes well off the plate and they use the entire height of the LL zone. I do agree that if they choose to call a tighter zone they would still have no issue due to the level of talent. I'm sure that some umpires there do not expand but I have definately seen many that do.

grayhawk · May 11, 2013

My point about the LLWS was to show that the umpires there very often call 1-2 balls out as strikes. They are not expanding their zone, they are using the same one they always use, which is not "by the book". It doesn't seem like the powers that be in Williamsport are too concerned about the book zone, otherwise these umpires would never be invited to officiate these nationally televised games.

BretMan · May 13, 2013

So, one ball width off the plate...roughly 2.8 inches.

Hold your finger and thumb 2.8 inches apart. Now imagine trying to gauge that tiny distance on a fast moving object, in relation to a floating three-dimensional space, the sides of which are imaginary lines projected vertically from the ground.

I doubt that many Little League batters are skilled enough in their judgment of pitches to even differentiate between a ball 2.8 inches away from a given spot.

I really, really doubt that a coach from the dugout or coach's box can accurately gauge a 2.8 inch difference in the ball's path.

Which means we wouldn't even be having this conversation if the umpires had just kept their mouths shut about how they were going to enforce their strike zones.

Just call 'em....don't explain 'em.

Aging_Arbiter · May 13, 2013

Once again, the firewall that I am behind prevents the use of emoticons. Does anyone care to add the beating of a dead horse? :Horse:

mstaylor · May 13, 2013

Even with your firewall you can type in the code, colon horse colon.

Dannytheman · May 13, 2013

I also want to add that in the LLWS you are seeing pitching we generally do not see at 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 year old regular season games.

It is not rare for me to have balls flying wayyyyy over my head, behind the batter, and hitting the ground 8 to 10 feet in front of the plate.

I get a huge kick out of the pitcher who wants the semi close strike after he throws like 9 balls that are only in the zip code, yet no where near the plate. The young boys occasionally make faces and show signs of frustration. I have told some AFTER THE GAME how they would feel if I did that when the ball goes over my head or flys behind the batter?

I promise them when they throw strikes, I will call strikes.

Umpire in Chief · May 13, 2013

I've had partners at that level, with that skill set, call a zone that tight. It. Is. Awful. For me, for the players, for the parents, for the coaches. Everyone.

So you had to move to Japan just to stop getting assigned with me at Plaza LL . :hi5:

BigUmpire · May 13, 2013

"Just call 'em....don't explain 'em"

Bumper sticker.

JHSump · May 13, 2013

"Just call 'em....don't explain 'em"

Bumper sticker.

I think you should start an online bumper sticker store! You're getting quite a good collection, BigUmpire! Or, maybe Warren can include these at the UE store.

Aging_Arbiter · May 13, 2013

colon horse colon.

Thanks............and uh.......no comment

bam · May 14, 2013

colon horse colon.

Thanks............and uh.......no comment

And I would like to point out that that smiley is beating that horse over and over in the balls.

Expanded Strike Zone for Little League

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