At what point abandonment? Or is this a tag or an appeal play?

[Jay R.]

Over-35 men's league, using modified OBR. I'm on the plate with a partner on the bases.

No outs and no one on. Batter grounds to F5, who deliberately skips the ball across the infield to keep it out of the sun. F3 scoops, but the ball hits his glove and pops high in the air away from him. Batter-runner touches first as he runs through. Base umpire makes no signal or audible call (understandably, in my opinion; it's obvious that the ball was never caught). Batter circles back, touches first again, and continues toward home (presumably heading for his dugout on the third base side). The defense starts pointing at him and calling about him being off the base, while the offensive dugout starts yelling that he was safe. Around the 45-foot mark, the batter realizes that he was safe and turns around. The ball is fielded back to the first baseman, who tags him while he is returning to the base. My partner calls him out at that point. 

Questions that arose from this play (my answers in parentheses):
-- Was my partner right to not make a call? (Yes)
-- Assuming that the umpire was right not to make a call, at what point do you call abandonment? One potential complicating factor is that this league has pretty liberal courtesy runner rules; my partner's initial thought was that the runner was leaving for a CR. (I was getting ready to call it when the runner turned around. "Any runner is out when: (2) After touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.")
-- Is there any scenario in which the tag would not have sufficed for an out call? The runner (politely) argued that he never made a move toward second. (No. If it's not abandonment, by retouching first he had become a normal runner, and is subject to being tagged out.)
-- Could the defense have appealed by tagging the base instead of tagging the runner? (No; he had legally returned to the base and now has to be tagged if he's off the base.)

Happy to hear any other thoughts that come to mind, too.

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, Jay R. said:

Batter-runner touches first as he runs through. Base umpire makes no signal or audible call (understandably, in my opinion; it's obvious that the ball was never caught).

Why didn't your partner call him safe?

Seems like a safe call is appropriate here. Everyone needs to know the status of the ball and runner.

[The Man in Blue]

My bias up front: I hate the wooden bat that so many people have for wanting to call abandonment.  (Was that tactful enough?)

Did the runner abandon his effort to advance to the next base?  NO.  The runner thought he was out and headed to the dugout.

Why did the runner think he was out?  Your partner’s actions/inactions.

Should we ever let an umpire’s actions/inactions put a runner in jeopardy of being tagged out?  NO.

The correct call was “Time!  The runner is safe at first.”  

While we do subscribe to “no ball, no call” there was a ball and a play here.  Your partner should have made a call.

[BigBlue4u]

5 hours ago, Jay R. said:

Base umpire makes no signal or audible call (understandably, in my opinion;

Why "understandably?"  There was a play and the runner touched the base.

Under the circumstances, I would return the runner to first base because of the possible confusion of a no call, and in my post-game with my partner emphasize the importance of making a call under the circumstances. The only time a no-call would be made in a similar play would be if the fielder missed the ball and the runner missed the base.

[Jay R.]

I am rather surprised that the responses are clamoring for a safe call at first. I thought that would be less controversial (no ball no call; everyone watching the play saw what happened). At any age level, the most I'm giving this is a slow, obvious safe sign with no vocalization, and I'm not sure that would have helped the runner here. Yelling "safe" and pointing to a ball 10+ feet away from the base seems to be aiding the players (contra a case where the ball is trapped and not picked up cleanly by the first baseman, but stays near where he touched it). I have seen much closer plays no-called by high-level umpires. 

Would you yell "Safe" and point to the fence if the ball got past the first baseman? If not, what do you do? If nothing, why do something here? (Asking honestly.)

5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I hate the wooden bat that so many people have for wanting to call abandonment.

I also don't like the idea of calling it, and haven't, but this seems to be a case where it would be warranted. From the rulebook comment:
"Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases."

[Velho]

11 hours ago, Jay R. said:

At any age level, the most I'm giving this is a slow, obvious safe sign with no vocalization, and I'm not sure that would have helped the runner here

Makes sense. Curious, was there a base coach?

[MadMax]

21 hours ago, Jay R. said:

Over-35 men's league, using modified OBR.

So, in essence, Middle-aged Rec Ball. Call a spade, a spade ♠️ . 

Sure, we gotta play by (some) rules, but this ain’t strict, serious, sacrosanct adherence to the minutiae of casebooks and manuals. Physical activity, clean competition, and all participants (including umpires) going home intact, without an ambulance called or a shuttle run to an urgent-care facility is a Win for everybody. 

I, and many of my colleagues, consider this “paid practice”. Yes, we want to get the call right, and yes, we want to practice proper angles, movements, rotations, and rules interpretations, but these “games” are, for the most part, more of a “workshop” than a bonafide crucible of a competitive game. 

21 hours ago, Jay R. said:

F3 scoops, but the ball hits his glove and pops high in the air away from him. Batter-runner touches first as he runs through. Base umpire makes no signal or audible call (understandably, in my opinion; it's obvious that the ball was never caught).

See, I’m “fine” either way. On the one hand, sure, a/the umpire can give a cursory “safe” mechanic. However, on the other hand, we have a bunch-a turkeys among us – sorry, pardon me, self-deigned evaluators – who say to those guys who do “make a call” on a play like that, “Buh! Don’t umpire the obvious! Buh!” 

Yeah, the ball popped in the air several feet, and the BR was obviously safe. Sure thing. 

Here’s what I don’t understand… how did the BR not see/observe/sense this? Was he that lost in his own little Batter-Runner World that he ran thru 1B and never had the presence of mind to at least wonder that he might have been safe?? And another thing… he has at least eight other adult teammates – not one of them was observing all this, and called out, “Roy! Where ya going?! You’re safe!”?? 

I mean, I can see if he was to peel off the back side of the run-thru, and was headed to the 1B dugout, or even headed towards the 3B dugout (sure, we could interpret a “move towards 2B” here)… but… he goes and retouches 1B??!! And then leaves and gets 45 feet away??!! 

And they (the defense) tag him?? Nope, sorry, I have him tagged out for being off the bag. Not for “abandonment” – that vacuous, vapid, arcane term that’s a holdover from the woolen pajama uniform days. 

[Velho]

17 minutes ago, MadMax said:

However, on the other hand, we have a bunch-a turkeys among us – sorry, pardon me, self-deigned evaluators – who say to those guys who do “make a call” on a play like that, “Buh! Don’t umpire the obvious! Buh!” 

"Don't make the stadium call! It's obvious."

Well, based on how incorrectly the crowd reacts to the simplest play, I'm a cynic on what's "obvious".

 

Cash may be King but communication is Queen.

(For OP, I'm thinking casual safe sign and maybe a low-key low volume verbal "safe")

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, Jay R. said:

no ball no call; everyone watching the play saw what happened

Who gives a SH*# about everyone watching the play?  How about the people IN the play?

It's quite apparent that the runner didn't see what happened.  He could very well be the only person on the field not watching the ball...he's running head down and watching the base.   He may just hear the ball hit the glove and not see anything else...so from his perspective he just believes he's been beat.

I disagree with your "no ball" assessment...the ball was there, and actually hit the fielder's glove.  There's even a world where F3 thinks he has caught, and has, the ball.

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

he has at least eight other adult teammates – not one of them was observing all this, and called out, “Roy! Where ya going?! You’re safe!”?? 

It happens on these "obvious" plays.  It's so obvious (to everyone but the B/R who isn't watching the ball...he's just running his ass off) that nobody really notices, because they're just expecting him to go back to the base, or they've moved on to concentrating on the next batter...or maybe another runner.  Very easy that they just wouldn't notice him doing this until too late.

 

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

So, in essence, Middle-aged Rec Ball. Call a spade, a spade ♠️ . 

Sure, we gotta play by (some) rules, but this ain’t strict, serious, sacrosanct adherence to the minutiae of casebooks and manuals. Physical activity, clean competition, and all participants (including umpires) going home intact, without an ambulance called or a shuttle run to an urgent-care facility is a Win for everybody. 

I, and many of my colleagues, consider this “paid practice”. Yes, we want to get the call right, and yes, we want to practice proper angles, movements, rotations, and rules interpretations, but these “games” are, for the most part, more of a “workshop” than a bonafide crucible of a competitive game. 

See, I’m “fine” either way. On the one hand, sure, a/the umpire can give a cursory “safe” mechanic. However, on the other hand, we have a bunch-a turkeys among us – sorry, pardon me, self-deigned evaluators – who say to those guys who do “make a call” on a play like that, “Buh! Don’t umpire the obvious! Buh!” 

Yeah, the ball popped in the air several feet, and the BR was obviously safe. Sure thing. 

Here’s what I don’t understand… how did the BR not see/observe/sense this? Was he that lost in his own little Batter-Runner World that he ran thru 1B and never had the presence of mind to at least wonder that he might have been safe?? And another thing… he has at least eight other adult teammates – not one of them was observing all this, and called out, “Roy! Where ya going?! You’re safe!”?? 

I mean, I can see if he was to peel off the back side of the run-thru, and was headed to the 1B dugout, or even headed towards the 3B dugout (sure, we could interpret a “move towards 2B” here)… but… he goes and retouches 1B??!! And then leaves and gets 45 feet away??!! 

And they (the defense) tag him?? Nope, sorry, I have him tagged out for being off the bag. Not for “abandonment” – that vacuous, vapid, arcane term that’s a holdover from the woolen pajama uniform days. 

Heh heh. You said minutiae. Said in my best Beavis and Butthead voice. Heh heh.

[Jay R.]

Thanks all

@Velho: No coach at first base at the time---leadoff batter, offensive dugout was on the other side, no one had gotten there yet.

Re @MadMax's comments:
-- Your points about the competitive level are noted.
-- My partner is, in fact, an officer in my NFHS chapter---not sure if he's an evaluator per se but, as this is my first year in NFHS, he was watching me on the plate to form an opinion.

@beerguy55: Genuinely asking: What would your mechanics be on the initial play? In both my current chapter and previous work in a different state, I've been taught to go with either a no call if the ball is clearly away, or perhaps a slow safe to acknowledge the attempt (which, as I said, don't think would've helped the runner here---if he doesn't see the ball bounce away from F3, I don't think he's going to see U1, set up between 1B and 2B, make a safe call.

I guess I also tend to default to what I was coached, coached my kids when they played, and hear coached around me: If you're not sure what happened, stay on the base and let the umpire tell you you're out (or foul ball, or whatever). 

To one of Max's points: I see how it happened but I think the rulebook and tradition puts some onus on the runners (and the offensive team, including coaches and dugout) to be aware of what's going on. If he turns around and says, "They got me, right?" I have no problem saying, "No, he dropped it, you're safe." (And if my timing is off or I otherwise do something that might actively confuse them, I have no problem calling time and proactively saying something---I did that on a dropped double-play ball this spring where I brought up a fist before F6 caught it, much less turned it.) But on anything where a ball bounces out of reach of a fielder, I feel like offering a call and a reason can be aiding the offense. 

[MadMax]

50 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Very easy that they just wouldn't notice him doing this until too late.

Lemme present to you another “classic” one… 

- R1. Pitch goes right thru/by the catcher with a mighty swing by the Batter (or, alternatively, it’s a Foul Tip), so the pitched ball is away from the catcher, such that R1’s advancement is uncontested. R1 could even have been stealing! Anyway, R1 arrives at 2B, and with no prompting from anyone – neither the defense, nor a (mistaken) umpire, nor a fan in the stands (if there are any) – gets up and starts heading back to 1B, thinking it was a Foul ball! 

Is there not someone who belts out, “Danny! Whadareya doin’??!” Conversely, if the defense tags him off the base, is he not being called out?? 

The only way I’m (as an umpire) absolving a Runner of being tagged off the base* is if I (or another umpire) directed him to leave the base (eg. two Runners occupying the same base, and an umpire points at the wrong Runner, calling him Out). Tagged off base? Yer out. Abandonment, tho? Nope… not happening. When you actually read and understand the origin history of this vacuous term “Abandonment” in baseball, you’ll likely never call it (again) in your career. 
 

*- Edit: Absent “vocal OBS” by the defense, of course. 

Edited July 7, 2025 by MadMax
Added “vocal OBS”

[Jay R.]

12 minutes ago, MadMax said:

When you actually read and understand the origin history of this vacuous term “Abandonment” in baseball, you’ll likely never call it (again) in your career. 

Link or source? I'm interested.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

Is there not someone who belts out, “Danny! Whadareya doin’??!” Conversely, if the defense tags him off the base, is he not being called out?? 

Same possibilities...they may not notice him right away...but, yes, if they do, they're screaming.  Also a bit different from OP because here, if it is a foul ball the expectation is a very loud declaration by an umpire to that effect.  You think this is a foul ball without hearing that, I'm not holding a lot of sympathy.  This is a no brainer "out".

I agree the OP is an out, for being tagged while off the base, but I would like to hear a verbal "safe".  Runner wasn't instructed to go anywhere, so it's on the runner, but I don't think enough was reasonably done to convey the appropriate information to the runner.  A safe habit for the runner is just return to the base and let someone say "you were out".

[stevis]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

Lemme present to you another “classic” one… 

- R1. Pitch goes right thru/by the catcher with a mighty swing by the Batter (or, alternatively, it’s a Foul Tip), so the pitched ball is away from the catcher, such that R1’s advancement is uncontested. R1 could even have been stealing! Anyway, R1 arrives at 2B, and with no prompting from anyone – neither the defense, nor a (mistaken) umpire, nor a fan in the stands (if there are any) – gets up and starts heading back to 1B, thinking it was a Foul ball! 

Is there not someone who belts out, “Danny! Whadareya doin’??!” Conversely, if the defense tags him off the base, is he not being called out?? 

 

I had a Little League Majors tournament game (you know, the one that ends with the TV show in August), in an extra inning game nonetheless, with that exact scenario (foul tip, stealing), and no, neither the defense or offense reacted to the runner retreating back to first.  I think, at his coach's prompt.  

[JonnyCat]

On 7/7/2025 at 9:50 AM, beerguy55 said:

It's quite apparent that the runner didn't see what happened.  He could very well be the only person on the field not watching the ball...he's running head down and watching the base.   He may just hear the ball hit the glove and not see anything else...so from his perspective he just believes he's been beat.

This exactly. I understand that some umpires did not ever play the game, or it's been a long time if they did. I'm not criticizing that, but sometimes you have to understand what is happening from a players perspective.

It's very obvious to me that the BR didn't know he was safe. I still play men's league softball, and have for many years (albeit poorly), and when running to 1B, I don't always know if I'm safe or out. Because I'm concentrating on running, I'm not looking at the play, and I don't always know if F3 caught the ball or not, or if the umpire maybe even just missed the call.

This begs the bigger question. What is so wrong about giving a safe call with a verbal in this situation? I'm not talking about coming up big on a banger, but just a regular safe call on any other play at first. We do that on a call at first that the runner beats by 1 or 2 steps, don't we? Those play are pretty obvious, but we still make a call, or should. What may be obvious to you may not be to the player(s).

Why are we arguing over whether we as umpires should give a safe signal on this play. I understand it is appropriate on certain plays to not give a signal. But why try and be so rigid?

Whats worse? Understanding the situation (a who gives a SH*# men's over 35 rec league game, no base coach, a play that the BR may not have seen what happened), and giving a simple safe call with a verbal, and God forbid, risk the wrath of Clarence Calls-a Few in an evaluation? Or, giving the defense a cheap out, because for some reason we can't be bothered to give a safe call.

I'd rather be dinged in an eval for giving a safe call. At least I could justify that. Why would you want to not give a safe call and risk a potential SH*#-storm? Nobody (players, managers, etc), knows if were supposed to give a safe call or not, or what the ridiculous protocol is. They expect a call on every play. I'm big on communication on the field from umpires. One thing that gets my goat is umpires that are not verbal enough or don't signal properly.

Just give a safe call. Bunnies won't die, and you won't miss out on that world series assignment if you did.

 

[BrainFreeze]

On 7/7/2025 at 10:40 AM, MadMax said:

So, in essence, Middle-aged Rec Ball. Call a spade, a spade ♠️ . 

Sure, we gotta play by (some) rules, but this ain’t strict, serious, sacrosanct adherence to the minutiae of casebooks and manuals. Physical activity, clean competition, and all participants (including umpires) going home intact, without an ambulance called or a shuttle run to an urgent-care facility is a Win for everybody. 

I, and many of my colleagues, consider this “paid practice”. Yes, we want to get the call right, and yes, we want to practice proper angles, movements, rotations, and rules interpretations, but these “games” are, for the most part, more of a “workshop” than a bonafide crucible of a competitive game. 

I agree with most of what you say on this forum, but that ⬆️rhymes with morse bit.

Tell those guys they aren't competing. 

If I'm getting paid for a game, I'm getting paid for my best effort no matter what.  Unless someone specifically tells me that the game is some type of scrimmage I'd have a hard time using it as a "workshop".

I also think you're doing a disservice to "many of your colleagues" and I suspect that "many of your colleagues" might not agree with you.

Edit:  @MadMax made very good clarifying points below.  I am not sure I agree entirely with how he expressed it, but I do see now what he meant, and I appreciate his well-thought response.

Edited July 20, 2025 by BrainFreeze
Mad Max made very good points. He's right - I did misinterpret what he'd written.

[MadMax]

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying... 

19 hours ago, BrainFreeze said:

Tell those guys they aren't competing. 

I did not say that they weren't competing. I said this (and you quoted it): 

On 7/7/2025 at 10:40 AM, MadMax said:

Physical activity, clean competition, and all participants (including umpires) going home intact, without an ambulance called or a shuttle run to an urgent-care facility is a Win for everybody. 

I, and many of my colleagues, consider this “paid practice”. Yes, we want to get the call right, and yes, we want to practice proper angles, movements, rotations, and rules interpretations, but these “games” are, for the most part, more of a “workshop” than a bonafide crucible of a competitive game.

Of course, if it's a game, at any level, they're competing. Furthermore, in no way am I calling into question any colleague's integrity or effort level when officiating a game (of this nature). Instead, my entire post is more an indictment of so-called, self-deigned "evaluators" and "instructors", who love to point out how an aspiring umpire is "doing this wrong" or "setting up this way wrong", or "moving in this manner wrong", often disconnected from the context of the very game in which that aspiring umpire is operating. 

In no way am I belittling the participants of a MSBL or NABA (or equivalent) game by calling it "paid practice"; instead, this sentiment is levied at the umpires – especially any, again, self-deigned "evaluators" or "trainers" – who project these games outside of their context. I've worked hundreds upon hundreds of MSBL/NABA/Adult Amateur games in my career; neither that quantity, nor the perceived "quality" of my officiating in those games, really correlate or substantiate whether or not I can officiate ultra-high-level games (such as anything in the NCAA D-1 arena, or professional). By that same note, merely attending camps and clinics devoid of any practical, actual real-game speed play doesn't effectively infuse those concepts demonstrated and exercised in said camps / clinics to a watermark wherein one can say, "Yes, you're ready for X type of ultra-high-level game." It takes practice. Practice at trying it, experimenting with it, adjusting it, and implementing it, repetition after repetition, at game speed. 
Know what's a good game type to do that practicing at? 🤔 Yup, MSBL/NABA/Adult Amateur. 

If you detect any contempt in my postings on this topic, it's squarely aimed at this cadre of – once again, self-deigned – "evaluators" who often ignore context when conducting their "evaluations". They say things like, "You shouldn't do this" or "Don't do that", rather flippantly, and often absent even the slightest reasoning; or worse, if questioned, they refer to a/the manual. Not Rules, a/the manual. 

 

[BrainFreeze]

7 hours ago, MadMax said:

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying... 

 

Fair enough!

[Jay R.]

Alan Porter just gave a very slow call on the Betts error in the top of the 8th, in a play very similar to the one described here. I wonder if there was vocalization.

[jimurrayalterego]

13 hours ago, Jay R. said:

Alan Porter just gave a very slow call on the Betts error in the top of the 8th, in a play very similar to the one described here. I wonder if there was vocalization.

I didn't see any vocal and wouldn't expect it. The absence of a verbal "out' should be enough of a verbal clue. But a signal is needed when you have a ball hitting the glove and a runner touching the bag. Porter hears ball hit glove and sees runner touch after that. Runner heard the ball hit the glove and thinks he's gonna be out and actually looks at Porter as he overruns by him. Porter then looks for secure possession and sees ball in the air. He then gives a casual safe signal which may or may not have been seen by runner but everyone knew what happened. 

If you "make no call" you might be interpreted as seeing no touch by the runner.

[SeeingEyeDog]

This is irregular. This is unusual. When an umpire is presented with things irregular and or unusual, they must do additional things to provide complete and utter clarity. I'm not safe-ing this with a gusto of a high leverage game on a game winning play at the plate but, yeah...I am giving a crisp safe signal and turning my volume dial up to 6 so that I am heard.

And I would like to repeat what @jimurrayalterego said above...a no call is the international distress signal that the umpire has BOTH NO TOUCH BY THE RUNNER AND NO OUT MADE BY A FIELDER. 1B is an unusual place both by rule and circumstance. There are factors in play on plays and situations at 1B that we don't have at the other bases. Calls at 1B require special care. Do you know what plays are over-turned more than any other in MLB? Plays at 1B...part of that is quantity and opportunity and frequency, of course. The other part of that is...1B is the Bermuda Triangle on any baseball field. Things have happened there that we don't talk about...

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

I haven't seen it, so I'm going with my reading of the description.

This is why I like a "SAFE" with a point at the ball in the air (or even a "juggle" sign).  It is signifying your call is based on "added" or "unusual" information.  You aren't calling him safe because he beat the throw, you are calling him safe because there was no catch of the throw.

[love to ump]

I like a "Safe" and point also, the juggle sign would be good, just make a call at least!!

I do a lot of Men's Rec League games, and you are creating an un-needed s&#t storm making an abandonment call .

Rec league players want good calls on the important plays that can decide a game.

We will turn a blind eye to bad pitching mecanics, rather than hunting for balks.

We will use different strike zones from a 4 to 2 nailbiter, versus a 11-1 blowout.

I like "outs" as much as everyone else, to move the games along, but don't go looking in unusual places for them.

Just umpire.

(3 beers and 2 whiskeys in, after Jay's lose heartbreaker, so excuse my post!)