Tag out vs. Force out - run scoring?

[Sambuddy13]

Hypothetical real life situation. Runner on third, 2 outs. As the pitch is being thrown, the runner on third breaks for home.  The batter successfully bunts the ball up the first base line.  The runner from third crosses the plate as soon as the batter is out of the batter's box.  The first baseman picks up the ball and the same time the batter arrives and he tags the batter out before he reaches first.  QUESTION: Does the run count?  We all know if the first baseman throws to first for the force out, the run does not count, however if the batter is tagged out, there's no force out.  Does the run count?
 
 Thanks,
Sam Malone
 
Side question: if the run does count in this situation what would be the ruling if the batter tackled the fielder after picking up the the ball making sure he was tagged out to make sure there would not be a force out at first and letting the run count.  (Could the first baseman be called for blocking the batter's path? LOL) Third scenario: Same set up, The batter bunts the ball, gets to it before the first baseman and picks it up and hands it to him making him out - thus no force out.  Keeping in mind, all these events happen after the runner on third touches home plate.  Do these runs count?  The batter's actions are to prevent a force out, but he's still out.   Sort of a third out sacrifice.  Thanks again. Sam

[Richvee]

No run scores if the batter runner is out before reaching 1B safely. Doesn't matter ...tag..Throw...pop out. They don't get to 1B, no run. period. 

[Velho]

To add: "being forced" is a state of being for a runner and not how the out is made.

Everything about the OP and @Richvee's answer applies to any runner forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner. That runner tagged before reaching the next base is a "force out" (so long as the force is still in effect).

[beerguy55]

 

9 hours ago, Sambuddy13 said:

We all know if the first baseman throws to first for the force out, the run does not count, however if the batter is tagged out, there's no force out. 

I expect Sam Malone would know this is not true.

8 hours ago, Velho said:

To add: "being forced" is a state of being for a runner and not how the out is made.

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

This should be the banner on this website, and should be on page one of every coach's handbook, and every document a coach gives to his players' parents.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@Sambuddy13, just to further illustrate...

I had R2 and R3 and 2 outs. The batter hits a rope down the RF line which drops in fair. The batter takes one step out of the box towards 1B and goes down to the ground holding his knee. (We found out later he twisted it...) As he is lying there in agony R2 touches the plate and then...R3 touches the plate. The two runners go back in the dugout. Here comes the throw in from RF to F3 and F3 comes to F2 and F2 tags the batter/runner still lying on the ground in agony. I am on the plate and I signal the out...softly as I want to be respectful of the situation. I then turn to the press box and signal...again, softly...do not count the runs, do not count the runs.

As @Richvee said, it does not matter HOW the batter/runner is put out. All that matters is...if the batter/runner is putout prior to reaching 1B safely and that is the 3rd out, no runs may score.

~Dawg

[Vegas_Ump]

How's this for circular logic?

Basic rule:  If the third out is made on a force out OR if the batter is retired [in any manner] before he successfully reaches first base, no runs can score.

If a batter/runner is tagged out, strikes out and then is tagged after a U3K, or if a fielder gets a batted ball and touches first base before he gets there, that satisfies the second criterion in the rule I listed above.  Sure sounds like a FORCE OUT, doesn't it?  But it is distinctly defined with more detail.

In the general case, if ANY forced runner who is tagged out before he reaches his next base, that's a FORCE OUT nonetheless.  And then dealing with the batter/runner it looks the same but it sorta isn't.

Aren't the rules a hoot?

Mike

Las Vegas

[MadMax]

13 hours ago, Sambuddy13 said:

We all know if the first baseman throws to first for the force out, the run does not count, however if the batter is tagged out, there's no force out. 

WTH? 🤨 

We’ve all heard the term “swipe tag” before, have we not? 

A batted ball is fielded by a fielder, and he makes an off-balance, off-target throw to F3 (1st baseman) at 1B. Unable to stay in contact with the base, the F3 leaps, catches the throw, and… slaps a tag on the BR prior to him reaching 1B, and he’s Out. Considered the same as if the F3 caught the ball while in contact with the base, or if he fielded the ball himself, on his knees, and then crawled over there to touch the base with his bare hand, or glove, provided he’s in possession of the ball. 

[Coach Carl]

The rule for your reference:

5.08 How a Team Scores

(a)  One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

Your runner fulfilled the requirement to score, but the run doesn't count due to Exception #1.  As noted by others, tagging a runner who is forced fulfills exception #2.  

[maven]

On 8/28/2024 at 11:56 PM, Sambuddy13 said:

Hypothetical real life situation.

Well, which is it?

21 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

If a batter/runner is tagged out, strikes out and then is tagged after a U3K, or if a fielder gets a batted ball and touches first base before he gets there, that satisfies the second criterion in the rule I listed above.  Sure sounds like a FORCE OUT, doesn't it?  But it is distinctly defined with more detail.

If A implies C and B implies C, does it follow that A = B? Not in this universe.

Example: all dogs are mammals, and all cats are mammals, but dogs ≠ cats.

Another: all 3rd outs at 1B prevent runs, and all 3rd-out force outs prevent runs, but 3rd outs at 1B ≠ 3rd-out force outs.

Minimal familiarity with the definition of 'force play' should make it obvious why retiring the BR before he legally touches 1B cannot possibly be a force play, whether or not it's the 3rd out.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, maven said:

Minimal familiarity with the definition of 'force play' should make it obvious why retiring the BR before he legally touches 1B cannot possibly be a force play, whether or not it's the 3rd out.

But when you become intimately familiar with the codes you find unfortunate wording that connects 1B to a force. There is also wording that has a runner returning to tag as being forced. 

[noumpere]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:23 AM, beerguy55 said:

 

I expect Sam Malone would know this is not true.

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

This should be the banner on this website, and should be on page one of every coach's handbook, and every document a coach gives to his players' parents.

i NEVER heard this question in my nearly 50 years of umpiring.  It didn't even come up (at least not with any frequency) for the first 20 or so years of the interwebs.  Now though, it gets asked more than a dozen times each season here. 

 

How did this start and why does it persist? (Rhetorical -- I don't really want an answer)

[Velho]

37 minutes ago, maven said:

Minimal familiarity with the definition of 'force play' should make it obvious why retiring the BR before he legally touches 1B cannot possibly be a force play

meh

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