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Doug5245

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Doug5245

Doug5245

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Batter in batter's box.  He does not swing,  but pitched ball hits is bat, pops high into the air and the catcher catches it before it hits the ground.  Out, foul ball, dead ball?

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noumpere
noumpere

You listed eight items.  That's not odd at all.

Lou B
Lou B

Out

JSam21
JSam21

Any legally pitched ball that touches the bat is a batted ball, regardless if the batter swings or not.   

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JSam21

JSam21

Posted
Posted

Any legally pitched ball that touches the bat is a batted ball, regardless if the batter swings or not. 

 

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Senor Azul

Senor Azul

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Posted

I think we all agree that the correct answer is the batter in the scenario is out on the catch. I also think the more interesting question is how do we know that? What rule or rules support our certainty?

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Senor Azul

Senor Azul

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Posted

Well done, Mr. BigBlue4u. As far as I know, FED rule 7-2-3 is the only place that comes close to answering the question posed by the OP. I think we have to cobble together a couple of rules in OBR/NCAA. 

I was able to find a history of the ruling for OBR though. Prior to 1920 OBR called the unintentional batted ball a strike. Then in 1920 it was considered to be just a dead ball. Apparently since 1921 OBR has ruled as we all understand things today.

I posted the history (and the FED rule) in the 

Ask the Umpire forum in a thread called no swing foul tip possible? started 4/29/22 (my post was 5/1/22)

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beerguy55

beerguy55

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Posted
On 12/26/2023 at 4:50 PM, Senor Azul said:

Well done, Mr. BigBlue4u. As far as I know, FED rule 7-2-3 is the only place that comes close to answering the question posed by the OP. I think we have to cobble together a couple of rules in OBR/NCAA. 

I was able to find a history of the ruling for OBR though. Prior to 1920 OBR called the unintentional batted ball a strike. Then in 1920 it was considered to be just a dead ball. Apparently since 1921 OBR has ruled as we all understand things today.

I posted the history (and the FED rule) in the 

Ask the Umpire forum in a thread called no swing foul tip possible? started 4/29/22 (my post was 5/1/22)

Oddly, OBR has definitions for BUNT, FAIR BALL, FOUL BALL, FLY BALL, GROUND BALL, LINE DRIVE, FOUL TIP, and INFIELD FLY that all reference "batted ball" - eg.  a FLY BALL is a "batted ball" that...but there is no definition for a "batted ball".

 

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noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Oddly, OBR has definitions for BUNT, FAIR BALL, FOUL BALL, FLY BALL, GROUND BALL, LINE DRIVE, FOUL TIP, and INFIELD FLY t

 

You listed eight items.  That's not odd at all.

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Vegas_Ump

Vegas_Ump

Posted
Posted
On 12/26/2023 at 7:49 AM, JSam21 said:

Any legally pitched ball that touches the bat is a batted ball, regardless if the batter swings or not. 

 

I have had dozens of cases where a wild pitch hit the bat (in numerous places) and went foul.  Easy call.  So in this case, it is a batted ball.  Now there are lots of rules that say what can happen with a batted ball.  If a fielder catches it before it hits the ground, the batter is out.  Doesn't matter where--foul or fair territory.  AND--most importantly--the ball is still live, and runners may attempt to advance at their own risk (after they have tagged up).

How's that for a verbose answer?  🙂

Mike

Las Vegas

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Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

 Now there are lots of rules that say what can happen with a batted ball.  If a fielder catches it before it hits the ground, the batter is out.

But there isn't a rule in OBR that says the batter is out if a Line Drive is caught. We do call it an out however.

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Vegas_Ump

Vegas_Ump

Posted
Posted
On 1/3/2024 at 9:17 AM, Jimurray said:

But there isn't a rule in OBR that says the batter is out if a Line Drive is caught. We do call it an out however.

Beg to differ with you Jim.  Rule 6.05(a):  A batter is out when a fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder.  It does not differentiate between a towering fly ball or a line drive.  It's a batted ball that hasn't hit the ground yet.

Mike

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Velho

Velho

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Rule 6.05(a):  A batter is out when a fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder.

I'm no scholar but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night: In DEFINITIONS it is differentiated: "A FLY BALL is a batted ball that goes high in the air in flight" and "A LINE DRIVE is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to a fielder without touching the ground".

In practice, you are obviously correct but by the letter of the law, only a FLY BALL can be legally caught for an out.

 

 

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BigBlue4u

BigBlue4u

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Velho said:

I'm no scholar but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night: In DEFINITIONS it is differentiated: "A FLY BALL is a batted ball that goes high in the air in flight" and "A LINE DRIVE is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to a fielder without touching the ground".

In practice, you are obviously correct but by the letter of the law, only a FLY BALL can be legally caught for an out.

 

 

Velho,

Check the definition of a catch.

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Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

Velho,

Check the definition of a catch.

The OBR definition of catch does not relate it to an out. You can legally catch a line drive but you can't cite a rule that it results in the batter being out. But we will overlook that problem in OBR.

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Senor Azul

Senor Azul

Posted
Posted

How about OBR 5.09(a)(12)?

A batter is out when:

An infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball or line drive...

And in rule 5.09(a)(1) where it tells us that a catch is the act of a fielder in gaining possession of a ball in flight. The OBR definition of Line Drive states that it is a batted ball in flight.

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Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

How about OBR 5.09(a)(12)?

A batter is out when:

An infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball or line drive...

And in rule 5.09(a)(1) where it tells us that a catch is the act of a fielder in gaining possession of a ball in flight. The OBR definition of Line Drive states that it is a batted ball in flight.

We don't have anything to relate a legally caught line drive to an out. We do have an intentionally dropped FAIR line drive as an out. We do have a problem in that 5.09(a)(12) references fly balls and line drive separately where 6.05(a) only references fly balls.

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Velho

Velho

Posted
Posted

To be clear, this is pedanticism to the 99th degree, i.e. it doesn't matter - no one is arguing that a caught line drive shouldn't be an out - so hopefully we're all approaching this accordingly. In that light...

36 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

And in rule 5.09(a)(1) where it tells us that a catch is the act of a fielder in gaining possession of a ball in flight. The OBR definition of Line Drive states that it is a batted ball in flight.

5.09(a)(1) is, at best, internally inconsistent. It clearly states it's an out when the "fly ball is legally caught". The further text of that rule expounds on what "legally caught" means. Using the lack of descriptor in that clarifying text to override the previous explicit statement of the type of ball is a stretch. In a wholly different context (such as a business contract), I believe that would be a desperate and likely losing argument.

Again, the point that I (and I think @Jimurray) are making is that the rules aren't as tight and buttoned up as they could be. That's all. 

 

image.png.3573628a54aba73517abc6254e1e8e8c.png

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beerguy55

beerguy55

Posted
Posted
On 1/6/2024 at 12:52 PM, Vegas_Ump said:

Beg to differ with you Jim.  Rule 6.05(a):  A batter is out when a fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder.  It does not differentiate between a towering fly ball or a line drive.  It's a batted ball that hasn't hit the ground yet.

Mike

Where do the rules ANYWHERE mention a "towering" fly ball?  The word "towering" appears nowhere in OBR.  OBR defines a FLY BALL and a LINE DRIVE...and the rule you cite only mentions a fly ball being caught resulting in an out.  No rule specifically says a line drive caught is an out...but we've ignored that problem for ~150 years.

It's all moot though - I don't see anything in OBR that defines a "batted ball".  But we somehow know that too.

 

 

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Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Gentlemen:  The EPA has just declared the Pi$$ant an engaged species!

I had not heard of that term so I asked my AI what it was: "I’m not sure what you mean by “engaged species”. Could you please clarify your question or provide more context? I’ll do my best to help you with your query." 😊

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Vegas_Ump

Vegas_Ump

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I had not heard of that term so I asked my AI what it was: "I’m not sure what you mean by “engaged species”. Could you please clarify your question or provide more context? I’ll do my best to help you with your query." 😊

Microsoft Auto-Incorrect strikes again!

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BigBlue4u

BigBlue4u

Posted
Posted
On 1/8/2024 at 6:42 AM, beerguy55 said:

Where do the rules ANYWHERE mention a "towering" fly ball?  The word "towering" appears nowhere in OBR.  OBR defines a FLY BALL and a LINE DRIVE...and the rule you cite only mentions a fly ball being caught resulting in an out.  No rule specifically says a line drive caught is an out...but we've ignored that problem for ~150 years.

It's all moot though - I don't see anything in OBR that defines a "batted ball".  But we somehow know that too.

 

 

 

On 1/8/2024 at 6:42 AM, beerguy55 said:

Where do the rules ANYWHERE mention a "towering" fly ball?  The word "towering" appears nowhere in OBR.  OBR defines a FLY BALL and a LINE DRIVE...and the rule you cite only mentions a fly ball being caught resulting in an out.  No rule specifically says a line drive caught is an out...but we've ignored that problem for ~150 years.

It's all moot though - I don't see anything in OBR that defines a "batted ball".  But we somehow know that too.

 

 

Food for thought:  This is why so many umpires get into trouble, by being too technical with the rules.  This thread has been going on since Christmas.  Let's all agree that the rule book is not precise in its wording, but throughout the years, we've been able to get through it all by applying common sense and tradition.

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beerguy55

beerguy55

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

 

Food for thought:  This is why so many umpires get into trouble, by being too technical with the rules.  This thread has been going on since Christmas.  Let's all agree that the rule book is not precise in its wording, but throughout the years, we've been able to get through it all by applying common sense and tradition.

That was the point of the video in my post - regardless of whether something exists in a book or not, we seem to know what to do.

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