Changing Fair/Foul call

[BLWizzRanger]

I didn't experience this.  I heard about it from parents (friends), first, and then I went and asked the actual umpire what happened.  I probably don't have all of the details so bare with me.

NFHS.  The actual umpire, PU, called a ground ball foul down 1st base line.  OHC came out and argued that the ball tipped off of F3's glove in fair terrority and that made it go foul, therefore, it should have been a fair ball.  BU, in the B/C position, thought that it might have been tipped.  Is this something that or how can this be overturned?  Place the runners where you think they should have gotten to?  It was a ground ball that touched foul territory with a 'FOUL' call.  

What they did was consulted the rule book and overturned the call. I  FTR, even though I wasn't there, I dont think I could overturn this.  The one with the best view was PU.  The BU can't really see where the ball was when it was possibly tipped. BTW, the OHC is notorious for questioning everything even though he knows what actually happened.  Looks like he might have gotten another one.

[Replacematt]

8 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I didn't experience this.  I heard about it from parents (friends), first, and then I went and asked the actual umpire what happened.  I probably don't have all of the details so bare with me.

NHFS.  The actual umpire, PU, called a ground ball foul down 1st base line.  OHC came out and argued that the ball tipped off of F3's glove in fair terrority and that made it go foul, therefore, it should have been a fair ball.  BU, in the B/C position, thought that it might have been tipped.  Is this something that or how can this be overturned?  Place the runners where you think they should have gotten to?  It was a ground ball that touched foul territory with a 'FOUL' call.  

What they did was consulted the rule book and overturned the call. I  FTR, even though I wasn't there, I dont think I could overturn this.  The one with the best view was PU.  The BU can't really see where the ball was when it was possibly tipped. BTW, the OHC is notorious for questioning everything even though he knows what actually happened.  Looks like he might have gotten another one.

So, without having a FED book and going off of memory...

Doesn't that book explicitly say that a call of foul can never be changed?

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

So, without having a FED book and going off of memory...

Doesn't that book explicitly say that a call of foul can never be changed?

I think it’s a case play. A call of foul on a ball that touches the ground can’t be reversed. You can reverse a call on a ball over the fence. 

[Tborze]

Your title says Fair/Foul. That you can change.

Foul/Fair you cannot. 

Well, I guess you can but not by rule. 

[BLWizzRanger]

1 minute ago, Tborze said:

Your title says Fair/Foul. That you can change.

Foul/Fair you cannot. 

Well, I guess you can but not by rule. 

Ok, there is no implied meaning in the title other than a F/F or a F/F call.

[isired]

I don't see why they would change it anyway - PU didn't see it and BU says he "thought that it might have been tipped" - I don't think any umpire who saw something would use that language, if he saw it touched in fair territory ny F3 he'd say so, so I have to assume he didn't see it. Sounds like BU is guessing (based on the trajectory maybe? Could have been something in the infield - but most likely because of the OHC's argument).

[Senor Azul]

2020 NFHS rule 5

SECTION 1 DEAD BALL

ART. 1 . . . Ball becomes dead immediately when:

h. the umpire handles a live ball or calls “Time” for inspecting the ball or for any other reason, including items in Section 2 or gives the “Do Not Pitch Signal” or inadvertently announces “Foul” on a ball that touches the ground; or

2004 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations

SITUATION 10: With 1 out and R1 on first and a count of 2-1, B2 hits a bouncing ball along the first base foul line. U1 mistakenly declares “Foul!” as F1 picks up the ball in fair territory. RULING: The ball is dead immediately. R1 returns to first. B2 continues at bat with a count of 2-2. (5-1-1h)

Also see current FED case book plays 5.1.1A, B, and C.

[noumpere]

59 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

 so bare with me.

 

Ewww.  I don't know you that well.

[BLWizzRanger]

12 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Ewww.  I don't know you that well.

Well, bare as much as you would getting dressed out of your trunk then...

[Vegas_Ump]

Wait a minute!  Yes, you can change a foul ball to fair!  I saw Angel Hernandez do it!  See?  Must be so!  🙂

Mike

Las Vegas

[Rich Ives]

57 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Wait a minute!  Yes, you can change a foul ball to fair!  I saw Angel Hernandez do it!  See?  Must be so!  🙂

Mike

Las Vegas

For the lurkers: OBR and NFHS have different rules for this situation.

[HokieUmp]

Once you call it foul, it needs to stay foul.  For one, how do you place runners?  Everyone's now going half-speed, or some variation.

Also, how in the WORLD do two umpires get together and make a change THAT profound, when one of the umpire's input is ".... it *might* have tipped the glove"??!?  Yeah, I *might* have the winning Powerball numbers, too - so just go ahead and award me the check.

[agdz59]

Last month I was U1 in A in an NFHS-ruled tournament when a hard shot goes right over my head.  We had pre-gamed that I would take those so I turned my back, ran a few steps, saw the ball come down an inch or two fair, and JUST before I signal fair I hear "foul ball!".  This elicits a lot of teeth gnashing from one side of the bleachers. I turn around and there are literally three of us - me, BR, and F3 - blocking my partner's line of sight down the line.

I hold up my hands to indicate foul ball, the runner looks at his coach who shakes his head and, thank God, little more.

 As the batter is returning to the box, he asks me what I had. I told him "that was my partner's call." He laughed and complemented me on my diplomacy.

Even if he'd asked that I get involved or my partner wanted to talk, no way am I overturning that. The cure would be worse than the disease.

Got no idea what my partner was thinking still. He wouldn't admit to anything.

 

[Guest xxx]

Hey, if Phil Cuzzi can do it in Cubs @ Cardinals tonight, then any umpire is allowed to call a ball clearly in foul territory as fair.

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, Guest xxx said:

Hey, if Phil Cuzzi can do it in Cubs @ Cardinals tonight, then any umpire is allowed to call a ball clearly in foul territory as fair.

Haven’t seen the video but MLB/OBR allows reversal if no one reacted to the umpires incorrect call. FED does not. Do you have video. 

[Replacematt]

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Haven’t seen the video but MLB/OBR allows reversal if no one reacted to the umpires incorrect call. FED does not. Do you have video. 

If he called it fair (which seems to be what that post says,) it can be reversed at any time.

[Replacematt]

On 5/21/2021 at 4:18 PM, agdz59 said:

Last month I was U1 in A in an NFHS-ruled tournament when a hard shot goes right over my head.  We had pre-gamed that I would take those so I turned my back, ran a few steps, saw the ball come down an inch or two fair, and JUST before I signal fair I hear "foul ball!".  This elicits a lot of teeth gnashing from one side of the bleachers. I turn around and there are literally three of us - me, BR, and F3 - blocking my partner's line of sight down the line.

I hold up my hands to indicate foul ball, the runner looks at his coach who shakes his head and, thank God, little more.

 As the batter is returning to the box, he asks me what I had. I told him "that was my partner's call." He laughed and complemented me on my diplomacy.

Even if he'd asked that I get involved or my partner wanted to talk, no way am I overturning that. The cure would be worse than the disease.

Got no idea what my partner was thinking still. He wouldn't admit to anything.

 

Did you know for sure it was your partner?

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

If he called it fair (which seems to be what that post says,) it can be reversed at any time.

Too many posts to figure out by me now. Need video of what Cuzzy did. I would think he got it right and either reversed his fair to foul, or reversed his foul to fair to when nobody reacted to his foul call/signal. Am I right?  

[Replacematt]

20 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Too many posts to figure out by me now. Need video of what Cuzzy did. I would think he got it right and either reversed his fair to foul, or reversed his foul to fair to when nobody reacted to his foul call/signal. Am I right?  

https://streamable.com/y9u98w

He called it fair. I don't see anything that would indicate it was correct nor incorrect.

[Velho]

See embedded links to video from the broadcast https://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/how_did_the_umpires_miss_this_call_in_the_cardinals_cubs_game/s1_127_34976621

I went to the MLB archived game (2:50 mark) nothing much extra shown there.

Play was called fair and left fair. Not reversed. Nothing definitive to show it was wrong. Ball was foul at a moment but started to curl back to the line and view is blocked at time player picks it up.

[agdz59]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Did you know for sure it was your partner?

Oh yeah - unmistakably.  We've worked a lot together.  I think he knew right away he missed it, but he is a guy who has trouble admitting mistakes.  Thank God he didn't wait another second to call it or we'd have had a real situation.

[agdz59]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

See embedded links to video from the broadcast https://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/how_did_the_umpires_miss_this_call_in_the_cardinals_cubs_game/s1_127_34976621

I went to the MLB archived game (2:50 mark) nothing much extra shown there.

Play was called fair and left fair. Not reversed. Nothing definitive to show it was wrong. Ball was foul at a moment but started to curl back to the line and view is blocked at time player picks it up.

I was watching in real time and was surprised to see the fair call.  I mean Nolan Arenado and Yadi Molina are the ones working it.  But I agree on the replay it's gone foul and then it rolls over the seams in a way that pushes it back toward fair when you lose sight of it because of the player in the way just before Arenado touches it.  I assume Cuzzi saw it that way.  Did Arenado or Yadi address it post-game?

[Senor Azul]

Gil Imber of Close Call Sports has already posted an analysis of Phil Cuzzi’s call. Before I tell you about his explanation let me remind you of the following--

The interpretation of fair ball was changed in 2018 to the following (this is taken from the 2018 MiLBUM)—

When in contact with the ground, a ball must be in contact with fair territory and not merely over fair territory in order to be adjudged to be fair.

In Gil’s analysis he states that there has been an addition made to that interpretation. “Sidebar: Had this been a first contact by the batted ball in the outfield, it would need to make contact with the left/right field foul line or within those lines to be deemed fair [a recent MLB Umpire Manual interpretation add-on regarding batted balls in the outfield clarifies this to be the case for outfield hits, but not for infield hits]).”

Gil goes on to explain that the current definition in the rule book appendix is “A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that...while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player" so if we put together these two facts it would explain why umpire Phil Cuzzi called fair what appeared to us as a foul ball.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Gil Imber of Close Call Sports has already posted an analysis of Phil Cuzzi’s call. Before I tell you about his explanation let me remind you of the following--

The interpretation of fair ball was changed in 2018 to the following (this is taken from the 2018 MiLBUM)—

When in contact with the ground, a ball must be in contact with fair territory and not merely over fair territory in order to be adjudged to be fair.

In Gil’s analysis he states that there has been an addition made to that interpretation. “Sidebar: Had this been a first contact by the batted ball in the outfield, it would need to make contact with the left/right field foul line or within those lines to be deemed fair [a recent MLB Umpire Manual interpretation add-on regarding batted balls in the outfield clarifies this to be the case for outfield hits, but not for infield hits]).”

Gil goes on to explain that the current definition in the rule book appendix is “A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that...while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player" so if we put together these two facts it would explain why umpire Phil Cuzzi called fair what appeared to us as a foul ball.

That ball also satisfies the foul definition in the rule book but we always called it fair if partially over fair territory. The MLBUM interp makes it foul and I haven’t seen anything to restrict that interp to the outfield only. 

[dumbdumb]

On 5/21/2021 at 10:29 AM, Senor Azul said:

2020 NFHS rule 5

SECTION 1 DEAD BALL

ART. 1 . . . Ball becomes dead immediately when:

h. the umpire handles a live ball or calls “Time” for inspecting the ball or for any other reason, including items in Section 2 or gives the “Do Not Pitch Signal” or inadvertently announces “Foul” on a ball that touches the ground; or

2004 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations

SITUATION 10: With 1 out and R1 on first and a count of 2-1, B2 hits a bouncing ball along the first base foul line. U1 mistakenly declares “Foul!” as F1 picks up the ball in fair territory. RULING: The ball is dead immediately. R1 returns to first. B2 continues at bat with a count of 2-2. (5-1-1h)

Also see current FED case book plays 5.1.1A, B, and C.

so, just like a pitch, if any part of the ball, not just the mid point of the ball that is making a spot on the dirt (the radius point of the ball), but the leftover (overlapping the radius point touching the dirt) part of the ball not physically touching, but in the air within the plane of the line, would be considered as on or touching the line. (just like any part of a pitched ball touching any part of the plate would be considered a strike).