Uncaught third - time play?

[McMike]

Can't find this answer....

Two outs; runner on third.

Strike three gets past the catcher, at the same time runner is stealing home.  So the batter steps back out of the way.

Runner scores.

Then everyone notices the batter, who still hasn't heard everyone screaming at him to run, and still standing there a couple steps back from the batter's box.

Umpire calls him out for giving himself up.  Third out.

Does the run count as a time play?

(Little League specifically).

Thanks

[pnewton]

No, the third out was made on a batter before safely reaching first base.

[Tborze]

8 minutes ago, McMike said:

Can't find this answer....

Two outs; runner on third.

Strike three gets past the catcher, at the same time runner is stealing home.  So the batter steps back out of the way.

Runner scores.

Then everyone notices the batter, who still hasn't heard everyone screaming at him to run, and still standing there a couple steps back from the batter's box.

Umpire calls him out for giving himself up.  Third out.

Does the run count as a time play?

(Little League specifically).

Thanks

No runs score if the 3rd out is made by a runner being forced to advance or...by the BR before reaching 1B safely. 

[SH0102]

27 minutes ago, McMike said:

Can't find this answer....

Two outs; runner on third.

Strike three gets past the catcher, at the same time runner is stealing home.  So the batter steps back out of the way.

Runner scores.

Then everyone notices the batter, who still hasn't heard everyone screaming at him to run, and still standing there a couple steps back from the batter's box.

Umpire calls him out for giving himself up.  Third out.

Does the run count as a time play?

(Little League specifically).

Thanks

When the third out is made on the batter before he safely reaches first, no run shall score.

Another way to think...was the batter “forced to run”? Yes I realize he didn’t, but he had to run or be put out, thus it’s a force out, no run 

[McMike]

30 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

When the third out is made on the batter before he safely reaches first, no run shall score.

Another way to think...was the batter “forced to run”? Yes I realize he didn’t, but he had to run or be put out, thus it’s a force out, no run 

Thanks.

Is there specific language in the rule that designates the UTS a force play?

Or is it that the batter is always required to safely reach first base on a third out for any runs to count?

[flyingron]

In most rule sets, it is specifically called out as "batter put out before reaching first."  While it's essentially a force play, they list it seperately.

 

[Tborze]

44 minutes ago, McMike said:

Thanks.

Is there specific language in the rule that designates the UTS a force play?

Or is it that the batter is always required to safely reach first base on a third out for any runs to count?

Good question.  Runners are forced to Advance due to the batter becoming a runner. Therefore, technically, the batter himself is not forced.  

[JonnyCat]

39 minutes ago, McMike said:

Thanks.

Is there specific language in the rule that designates the UTS a force play?

Or is it that the batter is always required to safely reach first base on a third out for any runs to count?

There is no language that designates the U3K a force play. As others have said, it's essentially a force play, but classified differently.

The rule reference you are looking for in Little League is 4.09(a) exceptions. Page 115 of the 2021 LL rule-book. A run cannot score before the batter runner touches first base for the 3rd out.

Same in all codes, too.

OBR 5.08(a) exception.

FED 9-1-1 exception(a)

[maven]

The play on the BR at 1B is not, cannot be, a force play, in any sense related to the actual definition of 'force play'—"essential" or otherwise. 

Sorry guys, but this one is over my "allowable terminological sloppiness" line. It's not far from "an appeal is essentially a force play."

[JonnyCat]

43 minutes ago, maven said:

The play on the BR at 1B is not, cannot be, a force play, in any sense related to the actual definition of 'force play'—"essential" or otherwise. 

Sorry guys, but this one is over my "allowable terminological sloppiness" line. It's not far from "an appeal is essentially a force play."

"Allowable Terminological Sloppiness." Hahahahahahahahahahaha! Retentiveness getting the best of you today? I see you're bantering with Ives today, too. 

Only one person said that it was a force play. Regardless, a play at 1B, at least, shares some of the same characteristics as a force play.

Serious question? Even if it was defined as a force play, what difference would it make? 

Even MLB gets the definition wrong.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play#:~:text=First base tends to have,not caught in the air.

 

[SH0102]

I’ll just stick to the rule book, as I stated, “third out made before batter safely reaches first, no runs shall score”.

Try to use parallels to help someone understand and make sense of why it doesn’t count and make it worse

[Vegas_Ump]

The "vocabulary" on this kind of ruling looks bizarre the first time you read it.

Basically, no run can score when the third out is made on a force play, OR when the batter is retired before he legally attains first base.  Doesn't it seem that a play at first is a force play?  Practically it is.  But as your example shows, there are other ways that the batter can be retired before he legally reaches first base.

And appeals for an advantageous fourth out might include a case where a runner who was forced failed to touch a base and a post-action appeal makes that out #3.  No runs score!

Mike

Las Vegas

[McMike]

2 hours ago, maven said:

The play on the BR at 1B is not, cannot be, a force play, in any sense related to the actual definition of 'force play'—"essential" or otherwise.

Aha.  For those of us out in the back of the bleachers, I suppose its resemblance to a force play is the fact that the batter can be put out by stepping on the bag.

[McMike]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

Even MLB gets the definition wrong.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play#:~:text=First base tends to have,not caught in the air.

 

So, it's not about a following runner, instead, the batter is "forced" to advance by the rules.

[McMike]

3 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

The rule reference you are looking for in Little League is 4.09(a) exceptions. Page 115 of the 2021 LL rule-book. A run cannot score before the batter runner touches first base for the 3rd out.

Excellent. Thanks!

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, McMike said:

Aha.  For those of us out in the back of the bleachers, I suppose its resemblance to a force play is the fact that the batter can be put out by stepping on the bag.

But, a runner who misses a base or leaves to early on a caught fly can also be put out by stepping on a base -- the latter is NOT a force play and the former MIGHT (or might not) be one.  That's the point of many of the responses in this thread -- "force play" and "step on a base to get an out" are completely separate concepts.

[MT73]

Just because a runner can be put out by just stepping on a base does not necessarily make it a force play.

An appeal of a missed base or runner leaving early is the prime examples.

[beerguy55]

23 hours ago, McMike said:

Thanks.

Is there specific language in the rule that designates the UTS a force play?

Or is it that the batter is always required to safely reach first base on a third out for any runs to count?

On an uncaught third strike the batter becomes a runner.  Once a runner he is "required" to advance to first (which is why R1 then becomes "forced").  Once B1 is a runner, if he doesn't legally obtain first base, and is the third out, the run can't score....no different than if he had hit a ground ball to F4.