Catcher's balk/interference??

[Young_Ump]

Little League Juniors game. I'm behind the plate. Runner on first base takes off for second, pitcher throws the slowest pitch ever and the batter has no intention of swinging at it. The catcher comes all the way out on top of home plate to catch the ball and throw it down to second. First thing I did was call the pitch a ball. Then I thought about the so-called catcher's balk rule. But since we give warnings for balks anyways, I didn't call anything other than a ball. I know OBR only has that as a balk + catcher's interference, but only with R3 stealing home... should I have called a catcher's balk or catcher's interference? And can you have a catcher's balk with a runner stealing 2nd or 3rd?

[maven]

6 hours ago, Young_Ump said:

should I have called a catcher's balk or catcher's interference?

As you point out, the "catcher's balk" (a misnomer) does not apply here.

If anything, this is CI/CO. But if you're working a code that warns for (first?) balks, then I would recommend warning for this too. 

[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, Young_Ump said:

Little League Juniors game. I'm behind the plate. Runner on first base takes off for second, pitcher throws the slowest pitch ever and the batter has no intention of swinging at it. The catcher comes all the way out on top of home plate to catch the ball and throw it down to second. First thing I did was call the pitch a ball. Then I thought about the so-called catcher's balk rule. But since we give warnings for balks anyways, I didn't call anything other than a ball. I know OBR only has that as a balk + catcher's interference, but only with R3 stealing home... should I have called a catcher's balk or catcher's interference? And can you have a catcher's balk with a runner stealing 2nd or 3rd?

The batter’s intent to swing should not be a factor in calling CI. 

[noumpere]

Get the CI.  It's best to learn at this level.

[The Man in Blue]

Especially at that level.  It isn’t so much about the play or the game as it is teaching the catcher to quit trying to get himself killed.

[johnpatrick]

As others have said, forget the term catcher's balk.  Focus on the catcher's interference, the penalty of which is a balk on the pitcher and the batter gets 1B.  Yes, doesn't only apply with a R3, it applies with all runner combinations.

[agdz59]

But the OP says the batter never attempted a swing. how do you get CI without a swing that touches the catcher or his equipment?  My first reading of this says ball is the correct and only call.  ???

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

But the OP says the batter never attempted a swing. how do you get CI without a swing that touches the catcher or his equipment?  My first reading of this says ball is the correct and only call.  ???

NCAA has specific clarification on this that does not require a swing. But, in any code, do you want the batter to clock the catcher? 

[Jimurray]

31 minutes ago, johnpatrick said:

As others have said, forget the term catcher's balk.  Focus on the catcher's interference, the penalty of which is a balk on the pitcher and the batter gets 1B.  Yes, doesn't only apply with a R3, it applies with all runner combinations.

The balk penalty for CI only applies with R3 coming home. Otherwise only runners stealing get a base.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, agdz59 said:

But the OP says the batter never attempted a swing. how do you get CI without a swing that touches the catcher or his equipment?  My first reading of this says ball is the correct and only call.  ???

Because you don't want to require the batter to kill the catcher to get a CI call.   

The catcher prevented the batter's ability to attempt to hit the ball - think of it that way.

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, agdz59 said:

But the OP says the batter never attempted a swing. how do you get CI without a swing that touches the catcher or his equipment?  My first reading of this says ball is the correct and only call.  ???

Like any other obstruction or interference ... you don’t need contact or even an act necessarily.  Did it prevent the hitter from the opportunity to swing?  Oh yeah.

Some codes have verbiage about preventing a ball from entering the strike zone, but OBR does not appear to have that specific wording.

 

 

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Like any other obstruction or interference ... you don’t need contact or even an act necessarily.  Did it prevent the hitter from the opportunity to swing?  Oh yeah.

Some codes have verbiage about preventing a ball from entering the strike zone, but OBR does not appear to have that specific wording.

 

 

What codes have wording about "preventing a ball from entering the strike zone"?

[Young_Ump]

8 hours ago, maven said:

But if you're working a code that warns for (first?) balks, then I would recommend warning for this too. 

Yes they want a balk warning first but then after that we're free to call them. It's an unofficial policy though.

[Young_Ump]

7 hours ago, noumpere said:

Get the CI.  It's best to learn at this level.

 

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Because you don't want to require the batter to kill the catcher to get a CI call.   

The catcher prevented the batter's ability to attempt to hit the ball - think of it that way.

So for the CI do I let R1 get to second safely and then give the batter first base?

[grayhawk]

22 minutes ago, Young_Ump said:

 

So for the CI do I let R1 get to second safely and then give the batter first base?

CI is usually a delayed dead ball but not in this case (because the batter didn't put the ball in play).  As soon as F2 catches the pitch, just call the interference and then time.  Award R1 second and the batter first.

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, Young_Ump said:

 

So for the CI do I let R1 get to second safely and then give the batter first base?

CI is a delayed dead ball if the ball is put into play. In this case it wasn’t so you kill it right away. You don’t have to wait for R1 to get to 2B although he probably would be there as you were killing it in the OP. “Time, that’s interference, you 1B, you 2B.” Runners who are stealing during CI get 1 base. Runners also can be forced and get one base by the batter being awarded 1B. 

[beerguy55]

24 minutes ago, Young_Ump said:

 

So for the CI do I let R1 get to second safely and then give the batter first base?

2 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

CI is usually a delayed dead ball but not in this case (because the batter didn't put the ball in play).  As soon as F2 catches the pitch, just call the interference and then time.  Award R1 second and the batter first.

 

3 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

CI is a delayed dead ball if the ball is put into play. In this case it wasn’t so you kill it right away. You don’t have to wait for R1 to get to 2B although he probably would be there as you were killing it in the OP. “Time, that’s interference, you 1B, you 2B.” Runners who are stealing during CI get 1 base. Runners also can be forced and get one base by the batter being awarded 1B. 

Is the steal attempt not considered a play in progress? That is, could the coach opt to take the play which would entail R2 to second, a ball added to the count, and keep the batter at the plate?  (eg. batter is a stud, guy on deck sucks)

[noumpere]

12 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

Is the steal attempt not considered a play in progress? That is, could the coach opt to take the play which would entail R2 to second, a ball added to the count, and keep the batter at the plate?  (eg. batter is a stud, guy on deck sucks)

No.

[Replacematt]

12 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

Is the steal attempt not considered a play in progress? That is, could the coach opt to take the play which would entail R2 to second, a ball added to the count, and keep the batter at the plate?  (eg. batter is a stud, guy on deck sucks)

No. That option only occurs if the batter becomes a runner.

[grayhawk]

40 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

CI is a delayed dead ball if the ball is put into play. In this case it wasn’t so you kill it right away. You don’t have to wait for R1 to get to 2B although he probably would be there as you were killing it in the OP. “Time, that’s interference, you 1B, you 2B.” Runners who are stealing during CI get 1 base. Runners also can be forced and get one base by the batter being awarded 1B. 

Nitpicking, but always start awards with the runners closest to home first.

[beerguy55]

21 minutes ago, Matt said:

No. That option only occurs if the batter becomes a runner.

Thanks - this could get stupid in the Atlantic League... 

 

[maven]

On 10/11/2019 at 9:22 AM, agdz59 said:

But the OP says the batter never attempted a swing. how do you get CI without a swing that touches the catcher or his equipment?  My first reading of this says ball is the correct and only call.  ???

CI is hindrance of the batter's opportunity to swing. We can have that without a swing, and frankly, we don't want to be coaching batters to hit F2's who move up for the pitch.

[Senor Azul]

The batter has the absolute right to the pitch and the catcher (nor any other defensive player) cannot take that away from him. However, the batter can give up his right to the pitch. I recommend that you read an article written by Gil Imber of Close Call Sports titled Case Play 2018-3 - No Strike, No Balk, No Steal [Solved ] that discusses the exact type of play asked about in the OP. Here’s a link to the article and a video that can be found in it--

 

https://www.closecallsports.com/2018/05/case-play-2018-3-no-strike-no-balk-no.html

[ArchAngel72]

On 10/12/2019 at 10:30 AM, Senor Azul said:

The batter has the absolute right to the pitch and the catcher (nor any other defensive player) cannot take that away from him. However, the batter can give up his right to the pitch. I recommend that you read an article written by Gil Imber of Close Call Sports titled Case Play 2018-3 - No Strike, No Balk, No Steal [Solved ] that discusses the exact type of play asked about in the OP. Here’s a link to the article and a video that can be found in it--

 

https://www.closecallsports.com/2018/05/case-play-2018-3-no-strike-no-balk-no.html

So in the instance 1st shown here the PU called that incorrectly?

 

[The Man in Blue]

On 10/11/2019 at 1:21 PM, Jimurray said:

What codes have wording about "preventing a ball from entering the strike zone"?

Now that I said that ... I may be thinking softball.  I thought NFHS had it and a baseball case play where F5 “cuts off” a pitch and tries to throw out a runner stealing ... but I cannot find anything.  Disregard, I may have been imagining that.

[Senor Azul]

Yes, Mr. ArchAngel72, the MLB umpire in the video missed the call and thanks for watching the video—I think it is a very well done analysis and I hope you do, too. I have become a big fan of Gil Imber.

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 8.1.1 Situation G:  R3. After F1 winds up, R3 starts home as in a squeeze play. F3, who is playing close for a bunt, cuts off the pitch and tags R3. RULING:  This is a defensive obstruction. The ball becomes dead when touched by F3. R3 is awarded home and batter is awarded first. (5-1-2b, 8-1-1e, 8-3-1c)

None of the rules cited at the end of the case play say anything about “preventing a ball from entering the strike zone" although that is the net result. It is just another form of defensive obstruction (interference) that is committed by a fielder other than the catcher. As it states in FED case book play 7.3.5 Situation F, “A batter is entitled to an uninterrupted opportunity to hit the ball…”