Base-running Collision

[Guest Mike Baker8]

Problem hitter runs to first running over first baseman pushing him to the ground. This is little League boys 5th 6th 7th grade maybe 8th . first base had been touched with the ball in the first baseman's mitt at least 2 seconds before batter reached first base. Is this on the first baseman or the base runner? It looked like a retaliatory push by the runner

[Biscuit]

What do you mean by problem hitter?

If it was intentional, a warning or ejection is warranted. If there was another play happening, you probably can get interference. 

As to whose fault is it, that's a had to be there play. If the runner ran inside to hit the fielder, it's his. If the fielder had his foot in foul territory, probably his. 

[Guest I meant to say here's the]

Problem . after getting thrown out the hitter/ runner continued running to first then one there pushing the first baseman 

[The Man in Blue]

Probably a “would have to see it” call, but two things stand out to me here:

First: The batter runner should continue running through the bag, even if presumably thrown out.  Coach always told me, and I always told my players: You run through first or you run laps.  Your gonna’ run either way, your choice.

Second: I’m still knocking LL for still not using a safety base.

[BigVic69]

Sounds like a teaching moment.

Call the manager over and have a discussion with the player and manager.

Offense: This is not WWF, and you were out because of...etc. make sure he understands that Pro wrestwling on the field will still get you out.
Defense: get the out, get off the bag


7/8 is Machine pitch
5/6 is Coach pitch.

It is hard for me to think that this was "intentional".

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Biscuit]

6 minutes ago, BigVic69 said:

Sounds like a teaching moment.

Call the manager over and have a discussion with the player and manager.

Offense: This is not WWF, and you were out because of...etc. make sure he understands that Pro wrestwling on the field will still get you out.
Defense: get the out, get off the bag


7/8 is Machine pitch
5/6 is Coach pitch.

It is hard for me to think that this was "intentional".

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 

He's talking about grades, not ages. Would agree with your post whole heartedly if the situation was about 5-8 year olds.

[stevis]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Probably a “would have to see it” call, but two things stand out to me here:

First: The batter runner should continue running through the bag, even if presumably thrown out.  Coach always told me, and I always told my players: You run through first or you run laps.  Your gonna’ run either way, your choice.

Second: I’m still knocking LL for still not using a safety base.

Little League allows safety bases.  It's still optional though; if in our league's spot (we don't own fields, the county does) we can't do anything to make it happen despite asking.

Also, I wouldn't assume this is Little League(TM) vs. a generic usage.  OP?

[BigVic69]

WWF is not an option.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, BigVic69 said:

WWF is not an option.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 

[Aging_Arbiter]

What does the World Wildlife Foundation have to do with anything?

[Umpire in Chief]

It's a had to be there situation, but judging by what I envision from what you wrote I'd have at least a warning. That's not necessary, and if you let it go it is going to happen again and possibly get worse.

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, Guest Mike Baker8 said:

Problem hitter runs to first running over first baseman pushing him to the ground. This is little League boys 5th 6th 7th grade maybe 8th . first base had been touched with the ball in the first baseman's mitt at least 2 seconds before batter reached first base. Is this on the first baseman or the base runner? It looked like a retaliatory push by the runner

First - change two seconds to two STEPS.  I guarantee you it wasn't two seconds as ten-twelve year olds typically get from home to first in under four seconds - the jackrabbits will come in around well under 3.5...even if it's pushing five seconds (real fat kid) you're basically saying that the batter was barely half way to first when F3 caught the ball, and the F3 just stood on the base and waited to get hit by the batter/runner.  They're taking 8-10 steps in two seconds.

So, don't overstate your case.

When you say "retaliatory" - retaliatory for what.  If there is context to something that happened before it could be factor...or it could also create a bias or expectation...often times what looks like a push is really the runner bracing himself for an unexpected impact.  By starting with "problem hitter" sounds to me like you have a preconception that may be influencing your recollection of events.

It doesn't really matter when the first baseman caught the ball...it only matters what happened in the step or two before impact...did the B/R move into F3...or did F3 unexpectedly step back into the path?   Those would help to determine intent.

This is textbook htbt.

And yes, the runner SHOULD be running through the base, even if out by five steps.

[Rich Ives]

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Second: I’m still knocking LL for still not using a safety base.

Safety bases just cause more problems and don't fix running inside the baseline.

And I'd bet it wasn't LL.

[yawetag]

18 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I guarantee you it wasn't two seconds as ten-twelve year olds typically get from home to first in under four seconds - the jackrabbits will come in around well under 3.5...even if it's pushing five seconds (real fat kid) you're basically saying that the batter was barely half way to first when F3 caught the ball, and the F3 just stood on the base and waited to get hit by the batter/runner.  They're taking 8-10 steps in two seconds.

On a 90' field?

http://www.csgnetwork.com/baseballbaserunspdcalc.html - I can't speak for the validity of the numbers, but they're saying an above-average MLB player does it in 4.2 seconds.

[Aging_Arbiter]

12 minutes ago, yawetag said:

ten-twelve year olds

on a 90' field?

[yawetag]

2 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

on a 90' field?

Middle school kids are definitely on a 90' field, at least at the scholastic level.

[Aging_Arbiter]

ok.  I understand now why you asked that.   We don't have middle school ball around here.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, yawetag said:

On a 90' field?

http://www.csgnetwork.com/baseballbaserunspdcalc.html - I can't speak for the validity of the numbers, but they're saying an above-average MLB player does it in 4.2 seconds.

I made the assumption it was LL 60' at that age group, just like the kids we all watched on TV last week.  (I was 12 years old when I started 8th grade)  Yeah, 90' the kids will do in about six.

In the end, doesn't matter if the bases are 90' or 250'...two seconds is still a good 25-30 feet, and still 8 to 10 steps.

 

[yawetag]

9 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I made the assumption it was LL 60' at that age group, just like the kids we all watched on TV last week.  (I was 12 years old when I started 8th grade)  Yeah, 90' the kids will do in about six.

In the end, doesn't matter if the bases are 90' or 250'...two seconds is still a good 25-30 feet, and still 8 to 10 steps.

 

Makes sense. And I agree on the two seconds. Even when I pause between play and call, it feels like eternity, but it's never more than a couple of seconds.

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, yawetag said:

Middle school kids are definitely on a 90' field, at least at the scholastic level.

But they aren't 10. And 5th grade isn't middle school.

 

[beerguy55]

10 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

But they aren't 10. And 5th grade isn't middle school.

 

Typically grades 5-8 are 9-12 years old.   Depends where you are on what is middle school - it can conceivably entail any part of grades 5-9, depending on whether there's a separation from junior high.

[yawetag]

25 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

But they aren't 10. And 5th grade isn't middle school.

 

OP mentioned 5th through 7th grade (possibly 8th). Considering two-thirds of the grades (and a bit more, with the "possibly" 8th) are middle school, it's not out of the question to equate them to a middle school baseball team. Yes, they could play on 60' diamond, like Little League (which OP said, but in a way that made think in a generalization kind of way), so I'm not standing firm that it's definitely a 90' diamond.

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Safety bases just cause more problems and don't fix running inside the baseline.

And I'd bet it wasn't LL.

 

Not if umpires and coaches teach their proper use.  Safety bases don’t crash into people.  People crash into people.    

Thats like claiming your face mask causes you to get hit by foul balls.

OP said LL, so I took it at that.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

Not if umpires and coaches teach their proper use.  Safety bases don’t crash into people.  People crash into people.    

That's like claiming your face mask causes you to get hit by foul balls.

OP said LL, so I took it at that.

NCAA prohibits their use. 

Any time you need a page and a half to describe the various conditions about which part can be used when it's really silly (at best).

If people crash into people and safety bases don't, then the base is of no consequence so you don't need it,  and no one is going to go bonkers about who touched which part when.

And if you want to discuss teaching, teach F3 where to put their foot and the B-R where to touch the base.  Both skills will last throughout their playing career.

[beerguy55]

5 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Safety bases just cause more problems and don't fix running inside the baseline.

And I'd bet it wasn't LL.

They can cause confusion, and some systems outsmart themselves and implement rules that undo any safety aspect.

But in principle, if you say F3 MUST touch white and B/R MUST touch orange that is inherently a significantly safer system.  You're doubling the real estate with which both defender and runner have to work.

The problems come in the exceptions, and no safety bag will eliminate 100% of collisions, as you are still dealing with humans.

But at the younger ages where kids typically have less control of their bodies, having the runner as far away from the fielder as possible is always better.

At HS and older it should not be necessary.

However, at any kind of casual adult league, I say "why not?"

[Lou B]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Typically grades 5-8 are 9-12 year olds.

Not around here!

If you are 12 in the 8th grade that means you are graduating high school at 16!

I think you're off by a year or two.

We have Middle School Baseball (7th &8th grades) and they play on a 90 foot diamond, kids are normally 12-14.