Ejecting Fans

[UmpTime]

I happen to be a spectator at a high school game over the weekend.  Played under FED rules.

It was the 2nd or 3rd inning and I hadn't noticed any fan comments directed at the umpire to that point.  On a pitch that appeared pretty far inside the umpire called strike 3.  Many fans started yelling things like "The was a ball" and "Come on Blue", and "That was a terrible call".  I didn't hear any profanity, and thought to myself, that did look like a bad call, but figured it would die down as soon as the next pitch was thrown.  All of a sudden the umpire turns to the crowd and says "Your out of here".  Everyone just set there for a moment and then one fan says who are you talking to, to which the umpire of course says "you".  Then another fan says you don't even know who said anything.  The umpire then says "your out of here too".  A school official came and made them leave the field.

My question is, what do you guys that have a lot of experience, use as a criteria for throwing out a fan, and does the FED rule book or case book give guidance on this?    

[GPblue]

IMO that is what a game manager are for.  I officiate dugout to dugout, pole to pole.  

If the fans have become so unruly that it has caused the game to not continue to play, I let the home team coach work with the game manager to take care of who and what needs to be taken care of.

Was the level of the crowd causing the game to be interrupted?

To me that sounds like an umpire that did not use his proper channels to handle the situation. 

[conbo61]

I try to live by the adage "Don't talk to the fence."  If someone is threatening violence or something like that, then I would talk to the HT HC and summon game management.

The only time I ever addressed the fans was at a field where the stands were VERY close behind home plate.  I respectfully asked everyone to put their cell phones on silent.  It was very distracting to be concentrating on a pitch and be thrown off by a loud cell phone ringer.

No one had any issues and complied with my request.

[yawetag]

Agree with the other two posters. Never deal with someone outside the fences yourself. That's what game management and coaches are for.

[beerguy55]

7 hours ago, GPblue said:

IMO that is what a game manager are for.  I officiate dugout to dugout, pole to pole.  

If the fans have become so unruly that it has caused the game to not continue to play, I let the home team coach work with the game manager to take care of who and what needs to be taken care of.

 

7 hours ago, conbo61 said:

I try to live by the adage "Don't talk to the fence."  If someone is threatening violence or something like that, then I would talk to the HT HC and summon game management.

 

5 hours ago, yawetag said:

Agree with the other two posters. Never deal with someone outside the fences yourself. That's what game management and coaches are for.

This is all semantics.

Whether you toss the fan, or whether you tell someone else to do it for you, you're the umpire, and you ultimately dictate whether that game continues with that particular fan in the stands.

If it makes you feel better about yourself that, when you file the official report, that you can say that the facility director is the one who removed the fan, then I guess whatever floats your boat - to say you only own the inside of the fence is a shirk of responsibility.   If that was the case, you wouldn't even talk to the game manager about an unruly fan.   You know that what happens outside the fence can affect what happens inside the fence, so it IS your responsibility, and though other fans, or the cops, or someone who works for the field all have the power to do something without your input, you also have a significant amount of power to ensure an unruly fan is dealt with - that you don't directly eject the fan is a mere technicality.

You're in charge because people believe you're in charge.

[umpstu]

Saw it happen the other day and it was warranted.  A team which had won a state title had a tom of helicopter dads decide to camp out behind the backstop and criticize my partner and after an inning he called the coach down and walked to the backstop and told the parents and the coach that the parents could no longer be behind the backstop.  I ran down at this point and told one parent he was embarrassing his son and not to take the fun out of the game for the kids.  Have to say the dads were being assholes for no reason.  Pitching was pretty rotten for one team and their catcher was very inexperienced and my partner was trying to grab every strike he could.  We even had a minor league umpire attending the game and he said he had never seen anybody act like those dads.

[yawetag]

8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If it makes you feel better about yourself that, when you file the official report, that you can say that the facility director is the one who removed the fan, then I guess whatever floats your boat - to say you only own the inside of the fence is a shirk of responsibility.

Never worked somewhere that required me to file an official report for asking a coach to handle someone off the field. The point we were all making is that it isn't our job to turn around, point to someone, and ask them to behave. We do not directly deal with anyone who sits somewhere other than the dugout. It's not shirking responsibility -- a fan isn't our responsibility.

To extend this a step further: You're umpiring at a field with stands down the first and third base lines. A fan reaches over and interferes with a fielder attempting to catch a foul fly. You, rightly, call the fan interference. Do you then eject the fan? No - it's not your responsibility.

[Aging_Arbiter]

8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

This is all semantics.

Oh yeah??   YOU'RE outta here too!

[Thatsnotyou]

I get why people say "don't talk to the fence," but in some cases, I think you have to do it. At a typical HS game, there simply is no "game management". And a travel game, absolutely no game management. It's you and the coaches. Maybe there is a trainer around, but that's about it. If there is an AD, outside shot he's there, but I wouldn't even know it if he was and if he is, he's likely popping in and out amongst the other 15 activities going on at his school that day. What am I going to do, delay a game 15 minutes so game management can be summoned to tell them the secret that X dad needs to leave? That's creating more of a scene than what's necessary to that point.

If I need to get the fans/a fan to calm down, I'll usually try to use the coach. But if the coach is already fuming/been warned or whatever, how's that going to go? Not great. Kind of a tough spot there. You're throwing gas on a fire.

Ejecting a fan? Depending on when it happens/what I see/what my partner sees, I'll do it myself. If they don't want to leave, I'll get the coach involved. If I'm standing near the backstop and grabbing water and someone says "you're F*#King horse SH*#", I'll turn and tell them to leave. Why would I take a shot from a fan that close, then proceed to walk all the way to the dugout, explain to the coach what happened, bring him over to the fence, and then point him out? That just seems odd. Like "I'm telling!" If he doesn't start moving, I won't argue or talk from there, and I'll grab the coach. But I'll sure let them know he's gone.

I disagree that fans aren't our responsibility. Agree with @beerguy55, this is semantics.

[Aging_Arbiter]

4 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

YOU'RE outta here too!

 

[yawetag]

@Thatsnotyou, you definitely use the coach if you don't have on-site management. If you know what team it's for, you use that head coach. If you don't, you ask the home head coach to do it. If he doesn't deal with it, or gives some lame excuse, tell him that it's his responsibility to control the fans. If he still refuses, then take it up to an ejection. Then go to the new head coach. Eventually, someone will deal with it - or you're going home early.

If you've got issues already in the game with him, then you still go to him. You might be "throwing gas on a fire," but I'd rather fight that fire than put a match to another pile - because now I've got two fires to deal with. If you need game management to deal with it, then you can tell the home coach to get game management to the field. Yes, they might be at the soccer field, but someone in the dugout knows how to get that person to the baseball field. If the fan is unruly enough, stop the game and wait for management to arrive. If it's safe to do so, put the kids in the dugout; if not, keep them where they are.

A couple questions to the "deal with it yourself" camp: What are you going to do to a fan once you've ejected him? Are you going to pause the game and stare him down until he leaves? Continue the game while he packs up? What if he doesn't leave? What if he starts yelling at you?

For me, each of those is answered already. The coach is there dealing with it. If that coach wants the game to continue, he's going to get that fan out of the vicinity of the field.

[Thatsnotyou]

If I eject him myself? Yeah, I will wait to make sure he's leaving. If he's delaying at all, I go to the coach of that team. Most times when I've ejected a fan, they've left. They may continue to yell as they grab their seat back or whatever, but at long as they are leaving, fine. If they play the "I'm not going anywhere" card, it's right to the coach, no need to talk back and forth. It's not really any different than waiting for a coach to leave, except you don't have the head coach there to help you, since it's the same person. I wait until the coach leaves after an ejection. I don't re-start the game while they are slowly packing their stuff while still yelling from the dugout or making comments. Let's get the trouble completely out of the area, then we'll continue.

I'd rather take my shot at ejecting and him leaving and be done with it. If he doesn't, then I keep going down the list of procedures. That's when the coach can be used, or site management called from the soccer field, etc. But I don't see the need to drag that out right away. And to me, it's still semantics. I think it's more awkward to grab the coach, walk to the fence, and point at the guy in the red pullover.

If it's just a "get the fans under control," I try to use the coach or game management, if any exists.

I don't "talk to the fence" in that I don't have back and forths with fans, or warnings, etc. But simply ejecting a fan as you first move, to me, isn't talking to the fence.

 

[beerguy55]

7 hours ago, yawetag said:

Never worked somewhere that required me to file an official report for asking a coach to handle someone off the field. The point we were all making is that it isn't our job to turn around, point to someone, and ask them to behave. We do not directly deal with anyone who sits somewhere other than the dugout. It's not shirking responsibility -- a fan isn't our responsibility.

To extend this a step further: You're umpiring at a field with stands down the first and third base lines. A fan reaches over and interferes with a fielder attempting to catch a foul fly. You, rightly, call the fan interference. Do you then eject the fan? No - it's not your responsibility.

 

2 hours ago, yawetag said:

A couple questions to the "deal with it yourself" camp: What are you going to do to a fan once you've ejected him? Are you going to pause the game and stare him down until he leaves? Continue the game while he packs up? What if he doesn't leave? What if he starts yelling at you?

For me, each of those is answered already. The coach is there dealing with it. If that coach wants the game to continue, he's going to get that fan out of the vicinity of the field.

Why not?   How is that any different than if you ask a coach or facility manager to deal with it?  At some point you're going to enforce other consequences until you ultimately get your wish (ie. the fan leaving) - whether you asked the fan to leave yourself, or asked someone outside the fence to deal with it.

Otherwise, why bother asking someone to deal with it at all - if it got to the point that you felt the need to ask someone to deal with the fan you've obviously reached a point where you believe the fan is either impacting the game, or your ability to manage it.   If the fan is still there there's going to be consequences...either the coach is going to get ejected, or you're going to pause the game until the fan leaves.  I've seen umpires do it, and I fully support it.

To your example above - what if said fan who interfered with the fly ball did it over and over again?  I have to hope at some point you will ensure the fan leaves before continuing the game.

[yawetag]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

To your example above - what if said fan who interfered with the fly ball did it over and over again?  I have to hope at some point you will ensure the fan leaves before continuing the game.

Yeah, I would. I'd ask the coach to handle it, especially if it's happened multiple times.

 

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

How is that any different than if you ask a coach or facility manager to deal with it?

Because the coach is already there dealing with it from the start, saving one person (namely, the umpire) from having to be a part of it.

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Yeah, I would. I'd ask the coach to handle it, especially if it's happened multiple times.

 

Because the coach is already there dealing with it from the start, saving one person (namely, the umpire) from having to be a part of it.

We may be having a heated agreement here, but I want to clarify - I'm talking about the scenario where the coach is NOT dealing with it, and isn't going to deal with it until you tell him to. (or the facility manager, the tournament director, the POTUS, or whomever is in charge).

If no one else is dealing with it, and you determine it needs to be dealt with, you're part of it...even it's to delegate the task - and if the task isn't being done, you then have a decision, and the power, to do something about it - whether it's pausing the game, ejections, forfeits, whatever.

So, at that point, the differentiation between who ejected the fan is purely semantical.

 

If someone takes care of it without you raising a finger or saying a word, fantastic, that's utopia...but you know that doesn't always happen.

[HokieUmp]

I'm sorry, but I'm reading this, and have to ask:  Is this really A Thing for most of you guys?

Meaning:  the way people are wording their posts and replies, it sounds like there's a LOT of times this is happening for people.  Maybe I've been in a docile part of the world for most of my career, and my eyes are about to get opened here in The Great State of Texas, but I just don't see an issue with fans like this.  (I'd love to say it's my incredible umpiring and awesome people skills, but *I'm* throwing the bullSH*# flag on THAT one.)

I mean, we finally started playing "district games" here - tournaments are very popular for the first couple weeks - and there was a loud cry from The Idiot Cage when I got a low strike on the visitors.  It may have been justified, and it was surprisingly loud and indignant, but it didn't turn much uglier than that.  (I'm still adjusting to have people come AND seeing them get charged a ticket price - this is a Strange New World for me.)

Karma being what it is, I'm sure 2019 will be a hellscape for me, now, but I'm just not seeing where this is much more than a philosophical discussion.

[catsbackr]

I've said this before and I'll say it here again, "YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY IN THE STANDS!  NONE, ZERO."  If you think you do, you're just making up rules.  You don't.

 

And, for @Thatsnotyou, if you play under Fed rules, you are supposed to have a game administrator at the site.

[Thatsnotyou]

On site, sure. Somewhere around the entire athletic complex or in the building, I’d say. At the field at all times? No. 

To be clear, never thrown out a fan at a HS game. Travel ball is an entirely different game. It’s not frequent, but I’ve had some through the years. People will say the damndest things in travel ball. 

[JonnyCat]

I have never ejected a fan, but I have had some removed via an administrator, TD, or Board Member. I also agree we have no rule authority to eject fans. I'm fine with some umpires that want to eject fans, like Beerguy55 said, most people think we have the authority to do so. If that is what you want to do and it works for your games, knock yourself out. I teach, and have always been taught not to eject fans as an umpire. With that being said, maybe it's time to re-evaluate whether we should eject fans. With the shortage of umpires nationwide, mostly due to abuse, it wouldn't be a bad thing to start dumping unruly fans. It might be at least be something to consider and I don't think the world would end. 

I'm not saying it must be done, but it is certainly something to consider, or at least worthy of some civil discussion. We don't have to continue to conform to many of the old archaic philosophies that permeate our vocation. We can actually adapt to changing times and consider options that may be considered blasphemy by some. What would be the worst that could happen? We dump coaches and players, and usually everyone else shuts up. Why couldn't we do it with fans? Most say no, you can't do it or shouldn't do it, but why not? What if the rule books adopted provisions for ejecting unruly fans?  Would it necessarily be a bad thing? Would it be a good thing? This may be one solution that helps replenish our diminishing numbers.

Thoughts?

[yawetag]

15 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

I'm sorry, but I'm reading this, and have to ask:  Is this really A Thing for most of you guys?

12th year of umpiring. I've had one fan removed by the head coach.

[beerguy55]

19 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

I'm sorry, but I'm reading this, and have to ask:  Is this really A Thing for most of you guys?

I've only seen it a handful of times in 30+ years of playing and coaching, but I think it should be "a thing" more often - that is, I've seen a LOT of cases where unruly fans SHOULD have been tossed, but nothing was done about it - and most of the time the end result is some poor kid on the field is being embarrassed to death by their idiot parent....at the same time some umpire (or sometimes coach) is being verbally abused.

And you wonder why it's so hard to find, and keep, good umpires.   And why it's so hard to find amateur coaches who aren't also a father of some player on the team.

Umpires should have the ability, and the support to go with it, to hold a game until an unruly fan is removed.

[Mussgrass]

22 hours ago, catsbackr said:

I've said this before and I'll say it here again, "YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY IN THE STANDS!  NONE, ZERO."  If you think you do, you're just making up rules.  You don't.

 

In some, maybe most leagues, you are probably correct. I can only speak for the Lanco Youth Baseball League, which I used to coach in. Umpires absolutely could (and did) eject fans. It happened to the other team's fans in one of our games.

[beerguy55]

23 hours ago, catsbackr said:

I've said this before and I'll say it here again, "YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY IN THE STANDS!  NONE, ZERO."  If you think you do, you're just making up rules.  You don't.

If something outside the fences is impacting the game inside the fence, or your ability to manage that game, you have the authority to do something about it.   That authority may manifest itself in a number of different ways but to say it doesn't exist is fallacious.

[catsbackr]

5 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

If something outside the fences is impacting the game inside the fence, or your ability to manage that game, you have the authority to do something about it.   That authority may manifest itself in a number of different ways but to say it doesn't exist is fallacious.

Nope, you have no jurisdiction.  None.

[catsbackr]

1 hour ago, Mussgrass said:

In some, maybe most leagues, you are probably correct. I can only speak for the Lanco Youth Baseball League, which I used to coach in. Umpires absolutely could (and did) eject fans. It happened to the other team's fans in one of our games.

I don't do youth leagues, so, if an umpire's jurisdiction does extend to the stands, I stand corrected.

[Thatsnotyou]

7 minutes ago, catsbackr said:

Nope, you have no jurisdiction.  None.

This is nonsense. And if you're just having someone else deal with it prompted by your instruction, it's just semantics.

The reporting mechanism on the high school association website even shows this: