Cards walk off on take out slide

[Richvee]

 Interesting play for discussion. Legal in OBR, FPSR in FED. NCAA? 

Edited May 28, 2015 by Umpire in Chief

[ElkOil]

Boy, I dunno about FED.  Sure seems like INT to me.

[Richvee]

Boy, I dunno about FED.  Sure seems like INT to me.

​Yes. That's what I said. FPSR = Force Play Slide Rule

[webspinnre]

I HATE this play. Might be legal, but it's totally bogus. Especially if we're trying to improve safety in baseball, as there's nothing safe about this, whether it happens at 2B or at home.

[ElkOil]

​Yes. That's what I said. FPSR = Force Play Slide Rule

​Geez, I gotta stop posting so late at night.  I though your OP said something else.  

Criminy!

[jkumpire]

Rich,

That's definitely two on a FPSR violation in FED, and I'm getting 2 in NCAA as well. Unless I am totally confused F2 is in a protected area by rule as F4 and F6 are at 2B.

In NCAA you will probably be writing reports if you make the call, but that looks obvious to me.

 

[umpstu]

Great slide.  Go Cardinals.

[Richvee]

Great slide.  Go Cardinals.

​The fact that he got to the plate that fast was impressive. 

[noumpere]

Easy FPSR in FED and NCAA.  Also RLI in FED.

 

So -- 2 outs on the FPSR + 1 out on the RLI = 3 outs in FED

[maven]

Easy FPSR in FED and NCAA.  Also RLI in FED.

 

So -- 2 outs on the FPSR + 1 out on the RLI = 3 outs in FED

​Glad you used the emoji at the end there.

Agree with everything. Had R3 made no contact with F2 and his throw not retired the BR, I'd get the RLI too. One way or the other, I'd guess that OC will blow a gasket on this one.

[lawump]

I have no interference in OBR, he's within reaching distance of the plate (in fact, the heel of his left foot might have clipped the front right corner of the plate) .  I have a FPSR violation in FED and likely one in NCAA, too.  In NCAA, OHC likely gets tossed.

[Rich Ives]

Legal in OBR.

[johnnyg08]

Under FED RLI would be irrelevant b/c the FPSR would've already killed the play but I think you all are posting it for discussion purposes.  

 

 

[noumpere]

Under FED RLI would be irrelevant b/c the FPSR would've already killed the play but I think you all are posting it for discussion purposes.

 

 

​Correct.  Or, if the slide had been legal, or if PU didn't see the illegal slide ...

 

BTW, I forgot to post above that after you get the three outs in FED, because it's a "double violation" any un-needed outs can carry over to the next inning.

[dookiexman]

How does this not violate OBR 2015 6.01(a)(5)?

Any batter or runner who has just been put out, or any runner who has just scored, hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate;

[noumpere]

How does this not violate OBR 2015 6.01(a)(5)?

Any batter or runner who has just been put out, or any runner who has just scored, hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate;

​Because of the "continuing to advance" exception.  And, in MLB, if the player can reach the base, then anything goes much more is allowed.

 

If this play was at second, there would be less discussion -- although if the arm is grabbing the leg, I still think it could have been called in MLB.

[dookiexman]

OK, fair enough, but what about OBR 2015 6.01(i)(1)?

A runner attempting to score may not deviate from his direct pathway to the plate in order to initiate contact with the catcher (or other player covering home plate), or otherwise initiate an avoidable collision. If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner attempting to score initiates contact with the catcher (or other player covering home plate) in such a manner, the umpire shall declare the runner out (regardless of whether the player covering home plate maintains possession of the ball). In such circumstances, the umpire shall call the ball dead, and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the collision. If the runner slides into the plate in an appropriate manner, he shall not be adjudged to have violated Rule 6.01(i) (Rule 7.13).

Then from the comment on 6.01(i)(1):

...A slide shall be deemed appropriate, in the case of a feet first slide, if the runner’s buttocks and legs should hit the ground before contact with the catcher....

 

[noumpere]

I don't think that rule was intended to address this play.  But, I don't work MLB, so maybe it was, and maybe it applies (I didn't re-watch the video to see if the slide was in violation)

[Replacematt]

A slide isn't a collision. That's the way I would differentiate this.

[RingEmUp]

It's hard for me to watch this video objectively because I dislike the Cards so much, but clean play in OBR, FPSL in FED and I defer to the NCAA guys for their interp.  The video angle makes RLI tough to call for me but I can see the argument for it.

[DevildogUmp]

Twist for discussion:

If he doesn't make contact with his hand/arm and only with the knee on the foot do you still have the out on FPSR in Fed?

[Replacematt]

Yes. It's not what contacts the fielder, it's where the contact is in relation to the base.

[stl_ump]

It's hard for me to watch this video objectively because I dislike the Cards so much, but clean play in OBR, FPSL in FED and I defer to the NCAA guys for their interp.  The video angle makes RLI tough to call for me but I can see the argument for it.

​Why?  What did they ever do to you? ;-)

 

[RingEmUp]

​Why?  What did they ever do to you? ;-)

 

​They aren't my beloved Pirates.

[stl_ump]

​They aren't my beloved Pirates.

​Ahhh... got ya.  I thought maybe it was one of those jealousy things or something.  

From a May 3 column in our local bird cage liner.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/bernie-pirates-cards-always-battle-it-out/article_bde8abb9-1fb1-5fa6-a8d4-ac7a5597a23b.html