Ball stuck in glove

[Welpe]

Don't see this every day.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/11493214/v80734783

 

The OBR ruling is pretty clear. What would you rule in Fed (I know this one, just asking for discussion)? NCAA?

 

What do you think the first base coach is trying to argue?

[johnnyg08]

FED: 2 base award. Lodged batted ball.

[maven]

FED: the ball is dead (5-1-1f), the BR is awarded 2B (8-3-3), and preceding runners advanced to accommodate the BR.

[MadMax]

Two things, solely for the purpose of discussion:

 

1) Did Rizzo have to drop his glove so as to secure the catch of the ball-in-glove tossed from Lester (as in, there's something obscure in the rules / manuals?)?

 

2) Why this glaring difference in ruling between OBR and FED?

 

2.1) Is the ball declared dead upon the lodging, or after it is determined it cannot be unstuck easily, or something? Say it's a sharp comebacker to F1, who snares it and it lodges. Instead of removing his glove to toss it, F1 merely outruns BR to the bag at 1B and otherwise retires him. BU/U1 rules BR out. F1 then takes his glove off and extracts ball from webbing and returns to the mound... PU and BU (or any other umpire) likely didn't see it stuck and lodged, as it would appear at first glance that F1 just didn't have a good grip on it so as to toss it, or didn't trust his arm (or F3) to toss it – any of other typical action with FED-rules players. What occurs?

[StrikeDavis]

In a high school game there is no way I am calling this a dead ball and awarding the batter second base.  I know what the rule is and I know the coaches in our area do not.  I will let this play out just like the video and I won't have to write up an ejection report.    

[grayhawk]

Two things, solely for the purpose of discussion:

 

1) Did Rizzo have to drop his glove so as to secure the catch of the ball-in-glove tossed from Lester (as in, there's something obscure in the rules / manuals?)?

 

2) Why this glaring difference in ruling between OBR and FED?

 

2.1) Is the ball declared dead upon the lodging, or after it is determined it cannot be unstuck easily, or something? Say it's a sharp comebacker to F1, who snares it and it lodges. Instead of removing his glove to toss it, F1 merely outruns BR to the bag at 1B and otherwise retires him. BU/U1 rules BR out. F1 then takes his glove off and extracts ball from webbing and returns to the mound... PU and BU (or any other umpire) likely didn't see it stuck and lodged, as it would appear at first glance that F1 just didn't have a good grip on it so as to toss it, or didn't trust his arm (or F3) to toss it – any of other typical action with FED-rules players. What occurs?

 

1.  No.  As long as he has secure possession of the glove being tossed before the BR touches first, it's an out.

 

2.  Because Fed is stupid.

 

2.1.  I'd have an out there.  5.1.1 Situation R says that it's when the fielder throws the glove that it becomes apparent that the ball is lodged.

[johnnyg08]

In a high school game there is no way I am calling this a dead ball and awarding the batter second base.  I know what the rule is and I know the coaches in our area do not.  I will let this play out just like the video and I won't have to write up an ejection report.    

 

I would advise against creating your own rules.

[Welpe]

What would the NCAA ruling be?

[johnnyg08]

What would the NCAA ruling be?

 

Welpe, same as OBR.

[Blueump]

?

In a high school game there is no way I am calling this a dead ball and awarding the batter second base.  I know what the rule is and I know the coaches in our area do not.  I will let this play out just like the video and I won't have to write up an ejection report.

I called it in a FED game quite a few years ago...man, did I catch it! I wasn't "letting the kids play", I was trying to "be the center of attention" and he still brings the call up occasionally in stories he tells to other coaches. I did call it by the book however and I know I was right!

So if you don't call it by the rule book, why are you even umping?

[scrounge]

In a high school game there is no way I am calling this a dead ball and awarding the batter second base.  I know what the rule is and I know the coaches in our area do not.  I will let this play out just like the video and I won't have to write up an ejection report.    

 

I know this sounds harsh, but that's a pretty chickens**t answer....are there any other rules for which you lack the backbone to enforce? Hands part of the bat? I mean, if the coaches in your area think they are, well...

 

There's some survival skills it's ok to go with the flow. But this isn't calling that pitch a couple inches outside a strike because it hit the spot and everyone thinks is a strike. This is a black and white, point of fact rule that you're premeditatingly saying you wouldn't enforce simply out of....is there any other word to call it than cowardice?

[johnnyg08]

?

In a high school game there is no way I am calling this a dead ball and awarding the batter second base.  I know what the rule is and I know the coaches in our area do not.  I will let this play out just like the video and I won't have to write up an ejection report.

I called it in a FED game quite a few years ago...man, did I catch it! I wasn't "letting the kids play", I was trying to "be the center of attention" and he still brings the call up occasionally in stories he tells to other coaches. I did call it by the book however and I know I was right!

So if you don't call it by the rule book, why are you even umping?

 

 

Tough crud.  It couldn't be more clear in the rule book.  That argument should fall on deaf ears. 

[UmpJeff]

In a high school game there is no way I am calling this a dead ball and awarding the batter second base.  I know what the rule is and I know the coaches in our area do not.  I will let this play out just like the video and I won't have to write up an ejection report.    

 

So, you're saying you create your own rules to suite your situation because the coaches don't know the rules and it will preclude you from having to write-up an ejection report???  

 

Sometimes you just have to umpire.  Man up...  

 

I hope you find your integrity.

[BretMan]

FED: the ball is dead (5-1-1f), the BR is awarded 2B (8-3-3), and preceding runners advanced to accommodate the BR.

 

This sounds like you're saying that preceding runners advance only if forced by the batter-runner's award. It's two bases (time of pitch) for everybody.

[Mick]

In a high school game there is no way I am calling this a dead ball and awarding the batter second base.  I know what the rule is and I know the coaches in our area do not.  I will let this play out just like the video and I won't have to write up an ejection report.    

 

I hope you take the advice posted to heart.  We're all wrong sometimes.  This time, you are.

[Sut'n Blue]

It looks like the first baseman caught the glove by trapping it against his chest with his hand which is probably enough for a secure hold in hand. What if he trapped the thrown glove with his elbow and not his hand? Would you have an out?

[noumpere]

It looks like the first baseman caught the glove by trapping it against his chest with his hand which is probably enough for a secure hold in hand. What if he trapped the thrown glove with his elbow and not his hand? Would you have an out?

No.  Same as if the ball was "caught" in the elbow.

[maven]

 

It looks like the first baseman caught the glove by trapping it against his chest with his hand which is probably enough for a secure hold in hand. What if he trapped the thrown glove with his elbow and not his hand? Would you have an out?

No.  Same as if the ball was "caught" in the elbow.

 

 

What?!? The rule says, "securely in the hand or glove." It doesn't say whose glove!!

 

I keed, I keed.

[TheRockawayKid]

Why did R1 not take third base on the play? I don't understand it. Do you really think that Rizzo can throw the glove across the diamond — AND the third baseman have enough control to put the tag on. 

 

That brings up a question: How do the umps make sure that a fielder has secure possession of the ball if he's holding someone's glove? 

[StrikeDavis]

@scrounge: I like the response you provided.  I joined this board to get better and I would rather a harsh and honest response.  I appreciate all the responses I got.  I wouldn't say I don't have the backbone to call this play, but I was putting this more in the game management go with the flow kind of play (based on the responses, entirely wrong).  I ran this scenario past a few guys prior to our last chapter meeting and the responses varied from my point of view to that of @johnnyg08.  The best response I thought I got at the meeting was "I know we don't like to make the natives restless, but FED is stupid and makes us have to eat sh*t sandwiches from time to time."    

[kylehutson]

I'm thinking the best response may be to call out the DHC before awarding bases and explain that this is the rule, I think it's a stupid rule and if he wants to write the NFHS rules committee about how it hosed him, I'll back him up. But we're going to go by the rule book and everybody advances 2 bases from TOP.

[ZebraStripes]

And this is a good reason to visit the site.  I was unaware of that one for FED.  Now granted I am not a high school umpire at this point so I haven't been subjected to that rule yet.  Nor have I ever had that situation come up.

[maven]

And this is a good reason to visit the site.  I was unaware of that one for FED.  Now granted I am not a high school umpire at this point so I haven't been subjected to that rule yet.  Nor have I ever had that situation come up.

 

Once you're working HS baseball, you will be in a position not to see it there, too.

[Kevin_K]

I'm thinking the best response may be to call out the DHC before awarding bases and explain that this is the rule, I think it's a stupid rule and if he wants to write the NFHS rules committee about how it hosed him, I'll back him up. But we're going to go by the rule book and everybody advances 2 bases from TOP.

@kylehutson......I respectfully disagree with your order of operations here.

 

Why would this situation differ from any other base award? I would be willing to bet most are not aware of catch and carry and other infrequent situations.

 

I say make the award and then explain only if some one asks.

[Rich Ives]

 

I'm thinking the best response may be to call out the DHC before awarding bases and explain that this is the rule, I think it's a stupid rule and if he wants to write the NFHS rules committee about how it hosed him, I'll back him up. But we're going to go by the rule book and everybody advances 2 bases from TOP.

@kylehutson......I respectfully disagree with your order of operations here.

 

Why would this situation differ from any other base award? I would be willing to bet most are not aware of catch and carry and other infrequent situations.

 

I say make the award and then explain only if some one asks.

 

 

Because "everyone" has seen the MLB play where a tossed glove with a stuck ball results in an out.  This is so different that the defense (team and fans) is going to be livid.