Touching the Cathers Back?

[SAB_UIC_TX]

I guess I still don't see the advantage in this. Can someone explain the advantage at the high level of baseball and if this is such an advantage why doesn't every MLB umpire not do this? Not being confrontational, just trying to learn.

[ukce1861]

I guess I still don't see the advantage in this. Can someone explain the advantage at the high level of baseball and if this is such an advantage why doesn't every MLB umpire not do this? Not being confrontational, just trying to learn.

Please see 24's "Third" point in post 40...

[rth54]

This discussion is getting silly.

First, to repeat my thoughts from earlier, this is not a youth or high school baseball appropriate mechanic. There is no reason to be using this at any level below high-competative adult (READ: no beer leagues) and professional baseball.

Second, catchers at those levels may prefer umpires not touch them. But they accept it as a necessary part of that umpire's method of working the plate. Furthermore, chances are if a catcher knows you are touching him every single pitch, the umpire is being more forceful then necessary. Why Phil Cuzzi insists on his bear hug, I have no idea. My brother is a catcher playing college showcase baseball. I worked a plate game with him catching once and did a little firsthand participant observation. Before the game, I told him I would be putting my hand on his back some innings and others I wouldn't. Every 2-3 innings, I would ask him if he noticed when I was and wasn't doing it. He could not tell the difference. For the sake of full disclosure, he was wearing an All Star System 7 <acronym title='Chest protector'>CP </acronym>and I was putting the fingertips of all four fingers on the triangular back piece of the barness marked "System 7 gear." I then borrowed the same <acronym title='Chest protector'>CP </acronym>and one night had a friend repeat the experiment, with me catching. I could also not tell a difference.

Third, yes there are reasons to do this. Again though, those reasons don't become evident until working higher levels of baseball. One may think they know peripheral vision can be used to gather the same information, but, at least in my experience, this is not the case. Truthfully though, it only made a difference when he was catching his more skilled pitchers with greater and later movement on all of their stuff. For instance, I could tell, when he wanted the pitch on the outer third, when he had to shift his body ever so slightly in order to catch the ball directly in front of his body to try and sell that the pitch caught the outside corner. Talking after the game, he said he was usually able to get those pitches called strikes but every one I balled was off the plate.

Before you are ready to proclaim this as "needless", make sure you have a full understanding of the reason(s) a plate umpire would be doing this.

Ump 24 Thank you so much for an extremely insightful post on this topic.

[Majordave]

I gotta weigh in here a bit.

First, I am biased. I know Cuban personally. He is one of my best friends in the world and one of my favorite umpiring partners. We talk almost daily and mostly about umpiring. For hours. Or until he drops my phone conversation for someone else's call. (Ha!)

Anyway, Cuban was a VERY GOOD high school catcher who should have played in college but chose to pursue business opportunities. His business plan is outstanding and his work ethic in his business and his umpiring is outstanding. Virtually unparalleled.

He and I have discussed this. I don't touch. He does. I used to be a catcher and don't remember any umpire specifically touching me but I know it did happen. Probably for the reason I was touched occasionally, SH*#ty catchers. (When umpiring some effin sucky little league and thirteen year old games with sucky catchers who wouldn't block balls up and I get hit a lot. Then I touch the catcher by grabbing him and using him to block the ball like an old fashioned balloon. YES! I did this. Twice that I remember doing on purpose when Pugsley the little fat boy wouldn't block it up. HE then became my balloon in Little League Baseball, INC. "All-stars" (what a joke) and 13 year old cellar dwellar game with the worst baseball that could have ever been played going on in front of me with the worst coaching since Buttermaker of the original Bad News Bears. YES, I dumped the sorry coach after he screamed at me when I asked him, nicely, to either get his catcher to do his job or put a new catcher in, and then told the assistant to put in a new catcher or I was dumping him too.

Cuban has very good reasons for lightly touching the catcher. (They might not hold up to some of your analysis or standards) But, coming from him, they do hold water with me. He asks the catcher if they mind being touched first. I dont' think the catchers he works behind ever say not to touch. If they do state they do not like it, I am sure Cuban obliges. And I am sure he is probably not as sharp in those games. Cuban works College from D-1 Non-Conference on down and is a very good umpire. He runs a very tight game.

Now, to address the commentary on the Professional umpire's comments. I have discussed various aspects of umpiring with professional umpires including Major Leaguers. We all have our own style that works for us. I do know that all of them who work above pro-rookie ball, can absolutely work the balls off of most of us amateur know-it-alls. The biggest tell for me was why one of my other very good friends quit professional ball and it became apparent to me after reading like twenty-two or twenty-three books on umpiring, or by umpires last year while in Ass-crack-istan, the professional game DOES NOT, has not and never has, respect/respected the umpires at any level in professional baseball. Umpires are nothing but tools or equipment to professional players, managers and the teams and Leagues. A necessary evil. If they could get rid of umpires they would. This should be apparent to anyone who takes any kind of close look at the way professional umpires below Major League are allowed to be treated, are not protected, and NOT PAID a fair wage at any level below veteran Major League.

Abusing the umpire is PART OF THE GAME at the professional baseball level. The rats get dumped for infantile behavior then the show starts. All of the spitting, cursing, kicking dirt and every other belittling and unsavory thing they can think of occurs and nothing happens to the offending rats. It is PART OF THE GAME or SHOW to the powers that be in professional baseball and the umpires just have to take it. IF they retaliate or show any other emotion other than the occasional yelling back, and they had better not do it very often or risk a bad eval, the get written up, suspended or terminated.

In MY HUMBLE OPINION, It is crap how professional baseball allows all of this to occur.

Another friend, who made it to High A and was notified of AA promotion mid-season last summer quit being a professional umpire after four years to become a cop. He explained his decision to quit to me like this. "I know I was a good umpire. Actually a damn good umpire. But nobody would let me be one. It gets pretty old to hear that "you suck" every day. Including hearing it from the evaluators from Minor League Baseball. Those guys nit-pick every little mechanic, rule, situation that occurs and make mountains out of mole hills on most things all in the name of improving our game. Funny thing is, none of those effers made it to MLB so........ And, professional baseball, including the umpiring management staff, does nothing to protect us and usually takes the side of the teams, managers and players for all but the most egregious of violators in any controversial situation or ejection."

So I don't touch the catcher, nor do I judge those who choose to. I don't touch them that is, unless the sorry little bastards can't dig it up and don't try and I'm getting killed back there then I use them like a shield/balloon. But I don't work any crappy little league or thirteen year olds anymore. I don't have to. I don't need the money that bad. And, I am thoroughly disgusted with professional baseball's treatment of umpires and their SH*#ty system for using up good talent. But, I am not a pro, so who effin cares, right?

Anyway, my two cents.........

Maybe I need to take my meds?

[yawetag]

Not to go on a tangent or anything, eh, Dave?

[mstaylor]

Dave, I'm a little unclear on your point. Good post.

[gatoremt]

If any of you get a chance to watch some D-1 college baseball this year. Look for A J Lostaglio. He ALWAYS puts his hand on the catchers back. He has done it for years and has been in the College World Series several times.

[detailshp]

Dave;

As a long-time migraine sufferer, I can assure you, they have meds for that.

[BT_Blue]

Dave,

Great post that made a lot of sense. If you are taking meds that make you make that much sense I know of a couple head rats that could use some of it too. ;-)

[dumbdumb]

Another who used the 2 handed technique

[kylejt]

That above picture is my reasoning for not touching catchers. It just looks wrong. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

[johnnyg08]

If any of you get a chance to watch some D-1 college baseball this year. Look for A J Lostaglio. He ALWAYS puts his hand on the catchers back. He has done it for years and has been in the College World Series several times.

While it might be true, it is a case of "do as I say and not as I do."

[Haid D' Salaami]

If any of you get a chance to watch some D-1 college baseball this year. Look for A J Lostaglio. He ALWAYS puts his hand on the catchers back. He has done it for years and has been in the College World Series several times.

well go watch this year, I was at a clinic with AJ this fall, and he is going to try and not touch the catcher..

[Chris Hickman]

Look at this loser with his hand all over this poor catcher....

[JaxRolo]

Look at this loser with his hand all over this poor catcher....

That's Terrible. I just don't see the point on having to do that!

p.s. Look at the way his back is arched!!! Looks like he is straining to take a Dump!

Look at the guys in the background. They Look like they are laughing at him!

[johnnyg08]

Chris, where do you get all of these pictures of yourself? You have a great photographer.

[MidAmUmp]

If I was evaluating this guy, having his hand on the catcher's back would be very far down on my list of things wrong.

I will say if you use fingertips on the back (light enough that the catcher doesn't feel it) to simply judge distance and slot, then get in your stance...I don't have a problem with that. I do it on occasion when I feel I'm getting too deep.

Also, there is a photo somewhere in this thread and a discussion on if the slot has been taken away or not. Looking at the photo, it's pretty easy to tell the catcher has taken away the slot. I do exactly what the MLB umpire did in the photo - I will put my hand(s) on his back in that situation to help me stay high enough to get a look.

[BT_Blue]

Look at this loser with his hand all over this poor catcher....

p.s. Look at the way his back is arched!!! Looks like he is straining to take a Dump!

Dale Scott has the same lean and back arch. I dont have a problem with this at all. To bad he keeps trying to push that damn umpire lockerroom he came up with ;)

[catsbackr]

Look at this loser with his hand all over this poor catcher....

It looks like he is working a college game. What is everyone else working? Yeah, I'd get onto him! :)

[cuban]

Look at this loser with his hand all over this poor catcher....

It looks like he is working a college game. What is everyone else working? Yeah, I'd get onto him!

I was thinking the same thing.

[NWA_UMP]

How many college associations allow their members to wear the "new" Majestic shirts? It looks like a men's league game by the extra large tool shed the batter has...

How does he lock in to remain consistant with his head height? The catcher is down pretty low and that will change when he has a runner on the pads.

[catsbackr]

Our association allows us to wear the "new" Majestic shirts. They are actually the preferred style of shirt for this year.

Oh, and you certainly don't see too many men's league catchers in this position, at least I don't. This umpire is doing a lot of thing right, look at the level of ball he is calling.

[catsbackr]

Take a look at this joker's positioning, LOL.

[cuban]

It looks like a men's league game

This dosen't look like mens league too me. Look at how nice the grass is cut. Look at the lines for the Batter and Catcher Boxes. Look at how flexable and athletic the catcher is. Look at the hitters face. This looks like a D2 game to me.

[UmpTTS43]

Take a look at this joker's positioning, LOL.

Classic Gerry Davis stance.