5 things to help MLB-look at #3

[dumbdumb]

if i am working 4 times as many games a week and facing 4 times the concussion chances, i want 4 times $450k or $1.8 mil per season to even start to think about that. didn't some pretty good hockey guy have a lot of concussions and have to give it up.

and congrats to Larry Vanover. one of the few left that started MiLB in the 80's with the exception of Layne, who must have taken a DL season, as the only one left from the 70's ie 78 Applalachian League, now that West, Davis, Hallion also from the 70's are gone.

https://www.si.com/mlb/bryce-harper-five-mlb-rule-changes

[umpstu]

3 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

if i am working 4 times as many games a week and facing 4 times the concussion chances, i want 4 times $450k or $1.8 mil per season to even start to think about that. didn't some pretty good hockey guy have a lot of concussions and have to give it up.

and congrats to Larry Vanover. one of the few left that started MiLB in the 80's with the exception of Layne, who must have taken a DL season, as the only one left from the 70's ie 78 Applalachian League, now that West, Davis, Hallion also from the 70's are gone.

https://www.si.com/mlb/bryce-harper-five-mlb-rule-changes

Like all of the suggestions except for #3. Concussions for the asking.

[grayhawk]

That's just Harper being what he is...an a-hole. He has no idea what it takes to work the plate (especially at that level). Working 4 plates a week all season simply isn't sustainable and all but guarantees concussions or other injuries.

[SeeingEyeDog]

The only statistic lower than Bryce Harper's IQ...is the number of rings he's won. Zero. Who anointed this guy? He's won nothing. Stick to what you're good at, Bryce...pretending you're offended that an opposing player disrespected your teammate while making sure someone is "holding you back". What a hump that guy...

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

Sound like he is gearing up for retirement in the analysts' booth . . . 🙄

[BigBlue4u]

12 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

and congrats to Larry Vanover. one of the few left that started MiLB in the 80's with the exception of Layne, who must have taken a DL season, as the only one left from the 70's ie 78 Applalachian League, now that West, Davis, Hallion also from the 70's are gone.

A note on Tom Hallion.  Before his retirement, he was the last umpire still working who was on the field when John McSherry collapsed and died opening day in Cinciannati, April 1, 1996.

[MadMax]

Hey, I’ll take Bryce’s insights any day of the week over that tool Eric Byrnes. Remember that turkey? He wanted umpires all replaced with ABS / RoboUmps. 
Harper at least acknowledges, and advocates for, the umpires to remain human. And, he (unwittingly) acknowledges that some Umpires are better than others at PU. That’s significant. He even vocalizes that the older guys “get it”, and are cognizant of (being realistic upon) pace of play, and an at-bat. 
 

These are not things to be shrugged off and ignored. 

I will say this… I’d rather have a Bryce Harper as a NCAA coach than an A-Rod in the broadcast booth. 🙄

[Richvee]

He’s forgetting, or not realizing 4 plates a week from the best umpires are sure to drop their numbers due to fatigue, among  other things. And how do the guys not doing the plate get better?  
The other 4?  I actually like them. One challenge per batter and if you’re wrong , you’re out?  For some reason I really like this. If for no other reason than to watch some of these guys explode, or watch the reactions of their teammates when they kill a rally on a bad challenge. Retaining draft rights through college is an interesting concept as well. 

[Simply The Best]

Moronic. 

Honestly.

[The Ripper]

16 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

if i am working 4 times as many games a week and facing 4 times the concussion chances, i want 4 times $450k or $1.8 mil per season to even start to think about that. didn't some pretty good hockey guy have a lot of concussions and have to give it up.

and congrats to Larry Vanover. one of the few left that started MiLB in the 80's with the exception of Layne, who must have taken a DL season, as the only one left from the 70's ie 78 Applalachian League, now that West, Davis, Hallion also from the 70's are gone.

https://www.si.com/mlb/bryce-harper-five-mlb-rule-changes

Suggestion #3 is ridiculous. Umpiring a 9 inning game 2/3 times in 7 days is a ridiculous ask, I know MILB guys have to do it. I could not disagree more, hitters have to get a hit 30% of the time to be in the HOF and umpires miss one pitch and everyone rips them for it. Harper needs to worry about being a player and let the umpires umpire that game. 

[MadMax]

9 hours ago, The Ripper said:

Umpiring a 9 inning game 2/3 times in 7 days is a ridiculous ask, I know MILB guys have to do it. I could not disagree more, hitters have to get a hit 30% of the time to be in the HOF and umpires miss one pitch and everyone rips them for it.

👋🏼 

 
Hi there, Ripper! 

So, in-season, we’ve got guys doing Plates every other day (2-man crew) and every third day (3-man crew). Sometimes, doubleheaders compound that frequency. Season lasts anywhere between 70 – 140 days. So, in a 7-day span, in a 3-man (traveling) crew… if I do Day 1 on PU, then I’ll do Day 7 also on PU, and there’s your “tall task” of (plate) umpiring 3 9-inning games in a week. 

Ya do it. 

And, I dare say, ya get good at it. 

This part of the year, there are a slew of Adult Amateur Series / Tournaments being hosted. Those games are all 9-innings (3 hours TL), and umpires routinely do 1 or 2 plates per day. 
“But Max! C’mon! That’s not the Major Leagues! It’s different!” 
Is it, really? I’ve seen Big League pitching in the same ST game as “Farmhand” pitching. The velocities are all relatively in the same window. The real difference between a Big Show guy and a Farmhand is Command & Consistency. Yes, at this level, Command is measured in “Freedom Fractions” (QuackBang, out!), but I dare say, the Farmhands are more difficult to call because the Consistency is lacking! 

Harper’s comment about instituting a “Plate Type/Only” class and “Base Type/Only” class of Umpire isn’t a good idea, or essentially feasible. At its face value, it shouldn’t even be considered! However, there’s a perceptive truth hidden within it, between the words – that there are Umpires who are “better” at plate, at calling B’s & K’s – or, as Harper put it, managing an at-bat – than others. 
Aha! Let’s explore that further… “better than”… better than who? Better than what? What’s the standard? Is there one? Should there be one? 

… 

Oh man, this is on the verge of me going off on a rant. 

[dumbdumb]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

👋🏼

 
Hi there, Ripper! 

So, in-season, we’ve got guys doing Plates every other day (2-man crew) and every third day (3-man crew). Sometimes, doubleheaders compound that frequency. Season lasts anywhere between 70 – 140 days. So, in a 7-day span, in a 3-man (traveling) crew… if I do Day 1 on PU, then I’ll do Day 7 also on PU, and there’s your “tall task” of (plate) umpiring 3 9-inning games in a week. 

Ya do it. 

And, I dare say, ya get good at it. 

This part of the year, there are a slew of Adult Amateur Series / Tournaments being hosted. Those games are all 9-innings (3 hours TL), and umpires routinely do 1 or 2 plates per day. 
“But Max! C’mon! That’s not the Major Leagues! It’s different!” 
Is it, really? I’ve seen Big League pitching in the same ST game as “Farmhand” pitching. The velocities are all relatively in the same window. The real difference between a Big Show guy and a Farmhand is Command & Consistency. Yes, at this level, Command is measured in “Freedom Fractions” (QuackBang, out!), but I dare say, the Farmhands are more difficult to call because the Consistency is lacking! 

Harper’s comment about instituting a “Plate Type/Only” class and “Base Type/Only” class of Umpire isn’t a good idea, or essentially feasible. At its face value, it shouldn’t even be considered! However, there’s a perceptive truth hidden within it, between the words – that there are Umpires who are “better” at plate, at calling B’s & K’s – or, as Harper put it, managing an at-bat – than others. 
Aha! Let’s explore that further… “better than”… better than who? Better than what? What’s the standard? Is there one? Should there be one? 

… 

Oh man, this is on the verge of me going off on a rant. 

go ahead rant on.

how are we going to learn anything if withholding is going on.

[Velho]

4 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

6 hours ago, MadMax said:

Oh man, this is on the verge of me going off on a rant. 

go ahead rant on.

how are we going to learn anything if withholding is going on.

[SeeingEyeDog]

21 hours ago, MadMax said:

I will say this… I’d rather have a Bryce Harper as a NCAA coach than an A-Rod in the broadcast booth. 🙄

Well...I mean...that's a low bar really...

~Dawg

[BLWizzRanger]

I don't know what is worse.... MadMax teasing us with a rant or the teasing for the next "celebrity" being outed in the Diddy saga...

[beerguy55]

On 9/28/2024 at 7:49 AM, MadMax said:

Harper’s comment about instituting a “Plate Type/Only” class and “Base Type/Only” class of Umpire isn’t a good idea, or essentially feasible. At its face value, it shouldn’t even be considered! However, there’s a perceptive truth hidden within it, between the words – that there are Umpires who are “better” at plate, at calling B’s & K’s – or, as Harper put it, managing an at-bat – than others. 
Aha! Let’s explore that further… “better than”… better than who? Better than what? What’s the standard? Is there one? Should there be one? 

I'm on the fence about it.  Other sports do have their officials specialize in areas.  In hockey there are linesmen and referees with different responsibilities, and they don't rotate every game.  Referees are always referees, linesmen are always linesmen.

It don't know if specializing the umpires is a good idea, but I am not ready to say it's not a good idea.   Balls and strikes is a unique skill, and I daresay it's a skill beyond the other elements and duties the umpires do, and I suspect you will see more disparate data in performance if you measure the top to bottom in ball/strike accuracy, vs the top to bottom of safe/out accuracy, for example.

I am curious to see if there's a correlation in ball/strike performance to the other measures of performance.  ie. are the umps in the bottom top/bottom 10%ile for ball/strikes also in the top/bottom for other areas?  Or are otherwise competent (even great) umpires just SH*#ty at the plate?

Should there be a standard...certainly.  What it is - I'm not there yet.

The equalizer here could simply be the ball/strike challenge framework.  On a side note that may also get rid of these one knee catchers trying to steal low strikes and get them back to learning how to block balls in the dirt.

[umpstu]

On 10/3/2024 at 10:19 AM, beerguy55 said:

I'm on the fence about it.  Other sports do have their officials specialize in areas.  In hockey there are linesmen and referees with different responsibilities, and they don't rotate every game.  Referees are always referees, linesmen are always linesmen.

It don't know if specializing the umpires is a good idea, but I am not ready to say it's not a good idea.   Balls and strikes is a unique skill, and I daresay it's a skill beyond the other elements and duties the umpires do, and I suspect you will see more disparate data in performance if you measure the top to bottom in ball/strike accuracy, vs the top to bottom of safe/out accuracy, for example.

I am curious to see if there's a correlation in ball/strike performance to the other measures of performance.  ie. are the umps in the bottom top/bottom 10%ile for ball/strikes also in the top/bottom for other areas?  Or are otherwise competent (even great) umpires just SH*#ty at the plate?

Should there be a standard...certainly.  What it is - I'm not there yet.

The equalizer here could simply be the ball/strike challenge framework.  On a side note that may also get rid of these one knee catchers trying to steal low strikes and get them back to learning how to block balls in the dirt.

I think it's a terrible idea because it increases the odds of concussions. Would think a lot of guys would be hanging them up because of that.

[BLWizzRanger]

On 10/4/2024 at 11:06 PM, umpstu said:

I think it's a terrible idea because it increases the odds of concussions. Would think a lot of guys would be hanging them up because of that.

Sorry guys, I am not buying odds of concussion reasoning here.  Out of all of the MLB games this year, roughly 2500 - 2600 games (including spring training), does anyone know how many concussions have been received? Honest question. Even if 25 have been had, 1% of all games, I would take that risk. I wouldn't think it comes close to 25 in any year that MLB has been played. ( I would be amazed if someone came up with this stat though).

Heck, football or hockey players have a significantly higher chance of a concussion per game and there isn't any qualms about them hanging them up. This is arguing human nature and not comparing players to referees where players are in the mix of action and the referees are on the outskirts of play.

If we want to argue fatigue of taking all of the plates, I can go for that, but not the chance of concussions. 

[Velho]

Doing 2x, 3x, 4x plates would 2x, 3x, 4x the chance of concussion. That's simple and unassailable (even in an election year). We can then debate the baseline % and severity. Don't know where it ends up.

Even if we go this path, I think we need full rotation during the regular season. That's how you lower whatever the above risk is and develop umpires. I can see doing it during postseason and final month(+/-) of the regular season.

One thing though... we usually try to avoid doing consecutive plates with the same teams, don't we? As much hoo-haa MLBs PU catch today, you don't hear much that there are truly favoring one team or the other. Full-time PUs has risk of  providing fodder for perception of bias, no?

[dumbdumb]

10 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Sorry guys, I am not buying odds of concussion reasoning here.  Out of all of the MLB games this year, roughly 2500 - 2600 games (including spring training), does anyone know how many concussions have been received? Honest question. Even if 25 have been had, 1% of all games, I would take that risk. I wouldn't think it comes close to 25 in any year that MLB has been played. ( I would be amazed if someone came up with this stat though).

Heck, football or hockey players have a significantly higher chance of a concussion per game and there isn't any qualms about them hanging them up. This is arguing human nature and not comparing players to referees where players are in the mix of action and the referees are on the outskirts of play.

If we want to argue fatigue of taking all of the plates, I can go for that, but not the chance of concussions. 

then why with professional umpires of amateur players am i not just seeing the crew chief come in and work all 3 games on the plate every weekend and watch the others work just the bases rotating 1 BU on Friday then go to 3BU and then to  2 BU. lets increase that risk exponentially for them too. and like the article said, lets pay the plate umpire, lets see, 3900 all inclusive for big 12 1 umpire x 4 umpires equals basically 16000 outlay per weekend for 4 guys. let the plate ump make 12000 per weekend and the other 3 BU's only make 1350 each per weekend.

and in high school, why not only designate plate umpires only at $150 per game and BU at $50 per game if they are both make a total $100 per game.

[beerguy55]

On 10/5/2024 at 10:06 PM, Velho said:

Full-time PUs has risk of  providing fodder for perception of bias, no?

I'd say the opposite.   If you see the same plate umpire over the course of a four-game series it would become quite evident that he's not favoring either team....or if there is a problem, then the sample size would be more defensible to demonstrate that.

 

On 10/4/2024 at 9:06 PM, umpstu said:

I think it's a terrible idea because it increases the odds of concussions. Would think a lot of guys would be hanging them up because of that.

So your argument against specialization is that umpires need to all share the wealth on concussion risk?  That's a new one.  Be careful about that - because the logical progression of that concern is full time robo-calls on ball/strikes and having the plate ump effectively being just another base ump - he would stand five or six feet behind the batter and watch for swings, foot out of box, hbp, etc.

Believe me...there are about 20 fantastic reasons to not specialize and not make the same guy ump the plate every night.  Concussion communism is about 25th on that list.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

On 10/5/2024 at 9:06 PM, Velho said:

Full-time PUs has risk of  providing fodder for perception of bias, no?

I'd say the opposite.   If you see the same plate umpire over the course of a four-game series it would become quite evident that he's not favoring either team....or if there is a problem, then the sample size would be more defensible to demonstrate that.

Fair and rational point. The 2nd and 3rd game to get there is where the road will be bumpy (not to mention those that will never get there even after the series completes).

[concertman1971]

On 10/3/2024 at 10:19 AM, beerguy55 said:

On a side note that may also get rid of these one knee catchers trying to steal low strikes and get them back to learning how to block balls in the dirt.

I read this in the old guy voice shouting "get off of my lawn" (sorry @beerguy55) The amount of hate that OKD gets is unreal. Lets think back to the 80s..

Tony Pena- OKD guy (MLB Debut 1980)

Terry Stienbach- OKD guy (MLB Debut 1986)

Benito Santiago- OKD guy (MLB Debut 1986)

The list goes on. 

Did you happen to see the Pads game the other night? Yup. a pitch that "should" have been caught missed and went to the backstop with runners on. Guy was in the "traditional" stance.

Catching has evolved. We as umpires need to evolve with it. Stay on top of the latest trends in catching. OKD isnt going anywhere, anytime soon.  

 

[beerguy55]

7 minutes ago, concertman1971 said:

Tony Pena- OKD guy (MLB Debut 1980)

Terry Stienbach- OKD guy (MLB Debut 1986)

Benito Santiago- OKD guy (MLB Debut 1986)

They didn't do it every pitch.  They did it selectively when it made sense.   They didn't do it with the go ahead run on third base.  Even Santiago who had as good an arm there ever was, and really revolutionized throwing out runners from his knees, was typically not OKD on those particular plays.

It's even to the point now where OKD catchers don't even know why they're doing it.  If your pitcher has a hard breaking ball that is looking for swing and miss, you don't go one knee down.   The knee down is to better receive low strikes, and turn them into balls.  Precision pitchers need OKD to get more called strikes.  Swing and miss pitchers don't need low strikes stolen...but they do need U3K's blocked.

10 minutes ago, concertman1971 said:

Did you happen to see the Pads game the other night? Yup. a pitch that "should" have been caught missed and went to the backstop with runners on. Guy was in the "traditional" stance.

Your point?  Yes, sometimes catchers miss.  That's been true for as long as the game has had catchers.  It's not a binary outcome, it's about percentages.  A traditional stance catcher will block pitches in the dirt, especially those that are left or right, far far more than OKD catchers will, simply because the difference in lateral mobility is significant.

 

13 minutes ago, concertman1971 said:

Catching has evolved. We as umpires need to evolve with it. Stay on top of the latest trends in catching. OKD isnt going anywhere, anytime soon.  

It most certainly is - as soon as ball/strike challenges are part of MLB - likely not 2025, but almost certainly 2026 - framing/receiving will become a less important aspect of the game.  Once ball/strike challenges become the norm there, MiLB and NCAA there won't be a lot of point developing the receiving/framing.   Fooling the ump will be a waste of time.  It may be fun at the amateur levels, but will matter significantly less in the highest levels. No different than infielders who no longer swipe and sell the tag...they hold the tag because replay review incentivizes it.  Catchers will evolve again to focus on popup time for steals/picks, and blocking...both of which are sacrificed by OKD.

[concertman1971]

9 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

A traditional stance catcher will block pitches in the dirt, especially those that are left or right, far far more than OKD catchers will, simply because the difference in lateral mobility is significant.

Above are some stats that would challenge the perception that OKD is causing more PB.

I will I am a bit biased on the OKD stance (think of all the Thighs that need PRO tection). My instincts as well as my DMs from guys complaining about "lazy" catchers are guys that caught in HS/college in the 80s and their knees are shot from it, so they think OKD is being lazy. It is not lazy, it is evolution. Guys knees are saved. Strikes are "stolen". Yes, balls are blocked. We are shown on X, IG, FB all of the passed balls in the OKD stance, but are rarely shown the PB from the traditional stance. (IE the Pads).

12 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

It most certainly is - as soon as ball/strike challenges are part of MLB - likely not 2025, but almost certainly 2026 - framing/receiving will become a less important aspect of the game.  Once ball/strike challenges become the norm there, MiLB and NCAA there won't be a lot of point developing the receiving/framing.

This may/may not be fully correct. I worked the Pioneer League this past summer and teams were limited to a maximum of 6 total challenges per game, and once they got 3 incorrect, they were out of challenges. Let me tell you, when the pitcher challenged 2 pitches and got them both wrong, the hitters were NOT happy. The catchers still used OKD regardless of how many challenges they had left. I do not see MLB/NCAA allowing unlimited challenges.

Just my $0.02