balk

[albert]

so this high school coach is having his right handed pitcher, from the stretch, runner on first, pick up his non pivot foot ( front foot ) very slowly, if the runner steals the pitcher then does the "inside" move to 2nd base and pick R1.

We had a long discussion, he insist not only is this legal but a lefty pitcher can do this also,meaning, lefty picks up nonpivot foot,R1 STEALS ON 1ST MOVE, PITCHER thens cotintues "inside move in front of runner to 2nd base to get runner.

i think its ABSOLUTEY a balk. Any insight is appreciated.

[Vegas_Ump]

While what I have observed pertains mostly to lefties, the guidance I was taught was that if the non-pivot foot crossed the pitcher's plate, he was committed to throwing a pitch home.  If not, he had to make a continuous motion (most of the time to first) and gain angle and distance towards the bag.

On YouTube there are a ton of the flakiest pitching moves I have ever seen, and the discussions always deal with the balk rule.  Want to have fun?  Go watch some of these and read the comments!  [Some great discussions on collisions at home....but that's for another day.]

To the OP:  I am trying to visualize this, but IMO the pitcher is committed to throwing to the plate or first based on his non-pivot foot action.  Not to 2B.  I believe that a throw to second requires disengaging.

[And IMO, Andy Pettit balked on every throw to first, but that again is for another day!  🙂 ]

Mike

Las Vegas

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

I've always been partial to R1 with a full count, 2 outs and a right hander on the mound...pick the left foot up slowly, if the runner goes, execute the inside move and throw R1 out going to 2B.

~Dawg

[Velho]

4 hours ago, albert said:

high school coach is having his right handed pitcher, from the stretch, runner on first, pick up his non pivot foot ( front foot ) very slowly, if the runner steals the pitcher then does the "inside" move to 2nd base and pick R1.

This is what I envision from that description. Is it accurate?

 

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

This is what I envision from that description. Is it accurate?

 

I like what I’ve seen of this guy. Clear, correct directions for pitchers. 

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, albert said:

so this high school coach is having his right handed pitcher, from the stretch, runner on first, pick up his non pivot foot ( front foot ) very slowly, if the runner steals the pitcher then does the "inside" move to 2nd base and pick R1.

We had a long discussion, he insist not only is this legal but a lefty pitcher can do this also,meaning, lefty picks up nonpivot foot,R1 STEALS ON 1ST MOVE, PITCHER thens cotintues "inside move in front of runner to 2nd base to get runner.

i think its ABSOLUTEY a balk. Any insight is appreciated.

It's not a balk, as described.  F1 isn't committed to the plate until he makes some motion that's associated with the pitch that is NOT also associated with a throw.

 

in practice, the move you describe is difficult to execute, and it adversely affects the pitch.

[MadMax]

4 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

I am trying to visualize this, but IMO the pitcher is committed to throwing to the plate or first based on his non-pivot foot action.  Not to 2B.

Not quite correct. F1 can throw direct to an (unoccupied) advance base for the purposes of retiring the Runner attempting to steal. And, the threshold for Pro and NCAA is higher than younger / amateur ball.  
Provided F1 performs a legal inside move & throw to 2B, then if a Balk was to be called, it would be because it was judged that R1 did not attempt a steal of 2B (in the 2-man system, PU has to provide judgement on this; in 3- or 4- man, this is typically U1 judging this). 

The balk wouldn’t be called because of the move; it would be called because R1 didn’t commit an adjudged steal attempt. 

Now, as @noumpere indicates, the move is difficult to perform, especially by amateurs. And, subsequently, over-emphasis on “slowly bringing up the free/non-pivot foot” just makes the actual pitch less effective. 

But hey, if you’re up against an aggressive team that steals on first movement… and you can perform a legal move… git’ ‘em, kid! 

[The Man in Blue]

See the move often . . . seen it executed never.  Be a stickler if pitchers are going to do this.  

I like that video commentary that a choice needs to be made before F1 reaches the apex.

[Aging_Arbiter]

On 5/12/2024 at 2:46 PM, Vegas_Ump said:

the guidance I was taught was that if the non-pivot foot crossed the pitcher's plate, he was committed to throwing a pitch home.

So he can't step to and throw to 2nd base?  I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm trying to understand the description that you give. If a RHP does "an inside move" to 2B, doesn't his non-pivot foot cross the pitchers plate?

[TheLovejoy]

On 5/16/2024 at 7:42 AM, Aging_Arbiter said:

 If a RHP does "an inside move" to 2B, doesn't his non-pivot foot cross the pitchers plate?

Yes, but you're allowed to throw directly to a base for the purpose of making a play without disengaging. That's the portion of the rule that most people miss.
If he's in set position, and the runner just takes off to second, the pitcher can just turn and throw to 2nd to attempt to retire the runner. If there is a play there, all is good. If there is not, then you could balk it because there wasn't actually 'a play on the runner at the base'. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, TheLovejoy said:

Yes, but you're allowed to throw directly to a base for the purpose of making a play without disengaging. That's the portion of the rule that most people miss.
If he's in set position, and the runner just takes off to second, the pitcher can just turn and throw to 2nd to attempt to retire the runner. If there is a play there, all is good. If there is not, then you could balk it because there wasn't actually 'a play on the runner at the base'. 

@Aging_Arbiter was correcting @Vegas_Umpabout what a pitcher can do once any part of the foot (OBR), all of the foot (NFHS), all of the foot or part of the stride leg (NCAA), breaks the back edge of the rubber. With R1 he can pitch but not throw to 1B. With R1 going he can throw or feint to 2B. There does not have to be a "play" there. If R1 gives the impression that he is going F1 can throw or feint to 2B to drive him back.

[TheLovejoy]

51 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

@Aging_Arbiter was correcting @Vegas_Umpabout what a pitcher can do once any part of the foot (OBR), all of the foot (NFHS), all of the foot or part of the stride leg (NCAA), breaks the back edge of the rubber. With R1 he can pitch but not throw to 1B. With R1 going he can throw or feint to 2B. There does not have to be a "play" there. If R1 gives the impression that he is going F1 can throw or feint to 2B to drive him back.

So you're saying the disengaging from the rubber by using the basic step toward 2nd is legal, all of the time?(like when a runner is on 2nd, and the pitcher brings his leg up and over and steps toward 2nd just as a disengagement) That's the clarification that I think I missed. I assumed he meant when making a play at 2nd base. 

[Jimurray]

37 minutes ago, TheLovejoy said:

So you're saying the disengaging from the rubber by using the basic step toward 2nd is legal, all of the time?(like when a runner is on 2nd, and the pitcher brings his leg up and over and steps toward 2nd just as a disengagement) That's the clarification that I think I missed. I assumed he meant when making a play at 2nd base. 

So you're saying the disengaging from the rubber by using the basic step toward 2nd is legal, all of the time? No, there has to be R2 or R1 stealing or giving the impression of stealing.(like when a runner is on 2nd, and the pitcher brings his leg up and over and steps toward 2nd just as a disengagement)That's a legal feint which results in a disengagement when the pivot foot comes off the rubber. That's the clarification that I think I missed. I assumed he meant when making a play at 2nd base.