FPSR Disagreement

[JSam21]

27 minutes ago, MadMax said:

If this had been < 2 outs, and this had been a NCAA game, and that exact same action was performed by the participants – both fielder and R1 – we’ve got a FPSR. Even with R1 out, and knows he’s Out, by 3 strides… by going in to the base without a legal slide or veer off, he’s committed a FPSR. BR would be deemed Out as well.

With the current iteration of the rule for the NCAA, I don't think it would have been.  

[MadMax]

11 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

With the current iteration of the rule for the NCAA, I don't think it would have been. 

Not in my experience… I’ve gotten ripped on it, with video of the (my) play shared to D-1 umpires and coordinators. F4 bobbled the sharp grounder, it became a foot race to 2B, which F4 won by 2 strides. Tapped on the base, then stepped back (towards CF-RF) to cock back the ball and see BR arrive at 1B. R1 slows down and runs thru 2B on his way to 3B dugout as a retired runner. 

This was the 5th inning. 

My boss blew my phone up (in the locker room), and I spent several phone calls that evening “explaining myself”. One D-1 coordinator stated (to my boss) that, “if he (me) doesn’t call it, he doesn’t work for me.” 
😬

I and fellow Vultures have called it in HS this year, with the redefined NFHS Rules. 

[JSam21]

15 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Not in my experience… I’ve gotten ripped on it, with video of the (my) play shared to D-1 umpires and coordinators. F4 bobbled the sharp grounder, it became a foot race to 2B, which F4 won by 2 strides. Tapped on the base, then stepped back (towards CF-RF) to cock back the ball and see BR arrive at 1B. R1 slows down and runs thru 2B on his way to 3B dugout as a retired runner. 

This was the 5th inning. 

My boss blew my phone up (in the locker room), and I spent several phone calls that evening “explaining myself”. One D-1 coordinator stated (to my boss) that, “if he (me) doesn’t call it, he doesn’t work for me.” 
😬

I and fellow Vultures have called it in HS this year, with the redefined NFHS Rules. 

You know what... I was picturing something else... F4 or F6 stretching away from the base, not catching it on the base or a foot race.

 

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

I and fellow Vultures have called it in HS this year, with the redefined NFHS Rules. 

Good. I haven't heard of any yet. But it's early here. Keep up the good work. 

[Tborze]

5 hours ago, Velho said:

This is video of how I see the play in my minds eye (with F6 instead of F4 to be precise)

That’s malicious!! Throw him out!  He went in standing up!  WTF 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Mechanically, I would like to add the following to the discussion as someone asked WHO can call this and as someone else answered...ANY of the umpires and we know there are priorities on this.

In our example provided by the OP, we have R1 and a play into 2B...in this situation, PU should be moving out to the 3B side of the mound and then locking down once the throw is released to 2B. Depending on their athleticism some will get further than others. PU is doing 2 things in this situation...first, reducing their distance to 2B and thereby increasing their credibility on anything beyond U1's out/safe call at 2B. If you stay point of plate in this situation, you will not have a good view of extra action at 2B nor will you have credibility. There was no additional throw to 1B here but, remember when there is a throw to 1B, U1 has that play and is turning with the additional throw. U1 may miss extra action at 2B as the turn is being made.

Additionally, if the play into 2B is busted...an overthrow that gets away from 2B enough that R1 tries to advance to 3B, PU is now in a better position to take that play into 3rd on the rotation even though the original batted ball may have not left the infield. And PU will need to be on their horse because with an overthrow into 3B, now you've got to get on the plate. If you're working with a new partner or someone you haven't worked with in awhile, I would recommend pre-gaming the above...

~Dawg

[BLWizzRanger]

Additionally, if the play into 2B is busted...an overthrow that gets away from 2B enough that R1 tries to advance to 3B, PU is now in a better position to take that play into 3rd on the rotation even though the original batted ball may have not left the infield. And PU will need to be on their horse because with an overthrow into 3B, now you've got to get on the plate. If you're working with a new partner or someone you haven't worked with in awhile, I would recommend pre-gaming the above...
~Dawg

So, food for thought, it was highly suggested here that PU should continue up the 1BL, thereby getting a better angle looking into 2b and staying on the line for a pulled foot or tag or ball out of play. Unless it is a single out of the infield and the BU has the rotation to 3rd, a path toward 1BL should be used.

Thoughts?

Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk

[The Man in Blue]

I get what y'all are saying about the letter of the law in NCAA with the runner going in standing up, but with no play being made and no impact on the fielder's actions, I do not see anything to be called in FED.

Those case plays make it evident they are talking about a play being made.

8.4.2(b) includes the language "does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play . . . "

You can say it is a safety rule instead of an interference rule, but when NHFS inherently sees sliding as dangerous (a runner NEVER has to slide), that loses muster when there is no play.

[noumpere]

Play A) F4 takes the throw, stays on the base.  R1 veers off and runs past the base 6' toward the RF side of the base.

Play B) F4 takes the throw, continues toward third by 6'.  R1 runs through the base.

 

(If 6' isn't enough for you, use 10' or whatever).

 

A is legal and B is a FPSR violation?

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Play A) F4 takes the throw, stays on the base.  R1 veers off and runs past the base 6' toward the RF side of the base.

Play B) F4 takes the throw, continues toward third by 6'.  R1 runs through the base.

 

(If 6' isn't enough for you, use 10' or whatever).

 

A is legal and B is a FPSR violation?

Yep. Slide legally into the base or veer away from the fielder

[The Man in Blue]

I am not disagreeing about the safety intent and how bad of an idea going in standing up is . . . 

I am saying that in FED for the dubiously named FPSR (not named so in the rule book) to apply, the runner MUST "cause[s] illegal contact and/or illegally alter[s] the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play".

If F4 or F6 makes the catch for the force out (with no effect from the runner) and there is NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER to make a play at first, this rule does not even apply.

People are once again failing to use common sense and misapplying a well-intended case play to push their own "makes my life easier" agenda.

[TheLovejoy]

21 hours ago, JSam21 said:

There are requirements for a runner to go straight into the base... They did not meet those requirements. The only way that the rule says that a runner may go directly into the base is via a slide.

Groundball hit to F4, he flips to F6 who's coming across the bag, and continues coming across the bag, (toward F4). So instead of veering toward the right field line, (which would put him in the way of F6 who's coming across the bag), he goes straight into the bag standing up. BR is safe because the play took too long to develop, not because R1 did anything to slow the play, throw, or anything in the way.

My common sense says this would be ok. Your rule of the law says this is not ok, and BR is out regardless. Correct? 

[MadMax]

19 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Mechanically, I would like to add the following to the discussion as someone asked WHO can call this and as someone else answered...ANY of the umpires and we know there are priorities on this.

There are two predominant ways this is taught – OBR-based School, and NCAA-based Camp/Clinic. NFHS doesn’t have a school, or underwritten camp series; instead, they leave it to the individual states and associations to disseminate to their member base. And as we know, this becomes a crap shoot. 

18 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

So, food for thought, it was highly suggested here that PU should continue up the 1BL, thereby getting a better angle looking into 2b and staying on the line for a pulled foot or tag or ball out of play. Unless it is a single out of the infield and the BU has the rotation to 3rd, a path toward 1BL should be used.

Uhm, no. 

OBR-school teaches, in the 2-man system, with R1, on an infield grounder, PU is to move towards 3B, in Foul Territory, watching towards 2B. PU does NOT need to (and shouldn’t) announce to his BU partner that he is going to 3B. If ball leaves infield, he then tells BU he’s “at third”. If – and as soon as – BU signals/says an Out at 2B, PU is to immediately stop and return to POP, again in Foul Territory. 

Some takeaways: 

1. The PU does not announce to or “over-inform” the BU his going to 3B. 
2. OBR does not have a FPSR; instead, they have a bona-fide slide rule. Adjudication is placed (almost) entirely on the BU. OBR-based amateur baseball typically has a modification or “borrowing” of another ruleset’s protocol to address this okay, so as to protect amateur players. 
3. (Potential) pulled-foot / swipe tag at 1B is, again, wholly BU’s call. PU’s are instructed NOT to linger at 1BL, or near the plate, or to haul-ass back from heading to 3B so as to “help” on those two possible occurrences. The rationale is, if BU’s know there’s “no help available”, then they are to make (best) call at 1B, from (best) angle / distance / read-step they can achieve. 

By contrast, NCAA has the aforementioned FPSR, and it’s a “pretty big deal” as far as rules go. Because of its importance, the CCA Manual has directed that in a 2-man system, with a R1, less than 2 outs situation, PUs are to head (roughly) in the direction of F6 (shortstop). This takes them towards 3B, but vectoring noticeably into fair territory / the infield. Even if it’s a F/F grounder down the 3BL, adjudge that F/F, and if Fair (and fielded) by F5, still head into the infield so as to (help) observe potential FPSR violation at 2B. If R1 is Safe at 2B, immediately “bounce” towards 3B cutout, reading and readying for a play. 

If R1 is put out, PUs are to linger, and watch for any FPSR violations that the BU cannot see as he’s turned towards 1B. The implication is, in the calling hierarchy, the possible FPSR violation is more important than pulled-foot / swipe tag; as such, college BUs are being conditioned to take-&-make that call at 1B, completely. 

Camps & clinics drill this relentlessly. 

Now, the real challenge is at the amateur level, where the type / background / talent-vs-skill of umpire varies wildly within an association! Granted, for anything less than 60-90 baseball, there just isn’t a reason (nor space) that warrants the moving of PU towards 3B on a grounder staying in the infield. Most of us will still do it if it goes to the outfield, out of habit. Then there’s those who adopt “tournament mechanics / rotations”, and I don’t blame them – 4+ games in 90°+ heat sucks!! 🥵😫 Even on full 60-90 fields, “tournament mechanics” usually take over, and these kids play that mash-up of OBR and Fed; at 2B, provided these kids aren’t blatantly trying to kill each other, we’re pretty lenient. 

However, when the sanctioned NFHS association gets together, we’ve got a broad range of umpires, with a fair quantity of “Vulture -types” – guys that do (or did) pro ball, they actively do college, and also do a fair quantity of HS games. Our leadership, trainers, and evaluators are all college umpires. They teach from the CCA Manual. Other states may do things differently, but AZ has a decided “college lean” to it. 

Heh, when Vultures work together, we tend to throw everything in the blender – mechanics and rotations -wise – and cooperate on a game with rare an issue. 

So, the goals, guidelines, and expectations of the association need to be pursued in these cases. States like Illinois can be problematic, as @The Man in Blue points out. There is no overarching authority. 

 

 

… except maybe, “Here, wear this navy blue shirt.” 

[SeeingEyeDog]

19 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

 

 

So, food for thought, it was highly suggested here that PU should continue up the 1BL, thereby getting a better angle looking into 2b and staying on the line for a pulled foot or tag or ball out of play. Unless it is a single out of the infield and the BU has the rotation to 3rd, a path toward 1BL should be used.

Thoughts?

Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk
 

 

So, @MadMax already came in on this and batted clean up for me. Thank you, Brother Max...

I will just add...this is why I recommend pre-gaming certain situations. Again, Max is right, of course but...you and your partner need to know exactly what you are doing. I would definitely check with your local leadership, training committee, etc. to confirm what Max reviewed here. If they tell you something else, that might be an indication it's time to have a refresher for everyone locally on current mechanics.

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, MadMax said:

 

OBR does not have a FPSR; instead, they have a bona-fide slide rule. Adjudication is placed (almost) entirely on the BU. OBR-based amateur baseball typically has a modification or “borrowing” of another ruleset’s protocol to address this okay, so as to protect amateur players. 

So, the goals, guidelines, and expectations of the association need to be pursued in these cases. States like Illinois can be problematic, as @The Man in Blue points out. There is no overarching authority. 

… except maybe, “Here, wear this navy blue shirt.” 

 

I still contend NFHS does NOT have an FPSR, so I am going to steal that "bona-fide slide rule" terminology. 

And we wore black today.  I'm a rebel.  We were going to go pro-blue, but it ended up being jacket weather.  😁

[johnnyg08]

In our state for NFHS we want our PU to come up the 1B side. We feel as though we get a better perspective/look on R1's actions at 2B versus coming up on the 3B side. 

I never felt comfortable with the looks I was getting on the 3B side. I couldn't calibrate R1's path from the 3B side. I get a much better look from the 1B side....and my other responsibilities give me better positioning too. 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

In our state for NFHS we want our PU to come up the 1B side. We feel as though we get a better perspective/look on R1's actions at 2B versus coming up on the 3B side. 

I never felt comfortable with the looks I was getting on the 3B side. I couldn't calibrate R1's path from the 3B side. I get a much better look from the 1B side....and my other responsibilities give me better positioning too. 

I get what you are saying about the vector of his slide (especially on turf), but I agree heading towards F6 better positions you for any possibility.  Remember, 3B is your call on that runner.  If F6/F4 chuck that ball into the outfield, you have to be there.  You can pretty well recreate the vector in your head if he goes past the bag.

As for the look at R1's actions (excluding the vector), I feel you get a cleaner look by essentially paralleling the runner instead of taking the angle.

As for a pulled foot possibly being missed . . . its a $75 call.  A third man on the field gets you a lot more for your money, coach.  Otherwise, this is what we have and you saved some money.

[johnnyg08]

6 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Remember, 3B is your call on that runner.

I get what you're saying, but we give BU both ends of that and hedging on critical action at 1B as more likely than a throw/play into 3B.  

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

In our state for NFHS we want our PU to come up the 1B side. We feel as though we get a better perspective/look on R1's actions at 2B versus coming up on the 3B side. 

I never felt comfortable with the looks I was getting on the 3B side. I couldn't calibrate R1's path from the 3B side. I get a much better look from the 1B side....and my other responsibilities give me better positioning too. 

I like to pre game this.. "Ball stays on the infield, BU has all bases." Agree 1B side gives the better look at the R1 slide, and a much better look at a boundary call on an overthrow to 1B. 

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I get what you're saying, but we give BU both end of that and hedging on critical action at 1B as more likely than a throw/play into 3B.  

Yep -- if the BATTED ball doesn't leave the infield, PU doesn't leave the plate (for tag responsibilities).

 

YMMV, of course, depending on code and local custom.  And, my $0.02 -- it[' easier to see R1 slide to the side of the base from the first base side then it is from the third base side.  So, that's where I'd want PU to be.

[noumpere]

On 4/20/2024 at 6:29 AM, noumpere said:

Play A) F4 takes the throw, stays on the base.  R1 veers off and runs past the base 6' toward the RF side of the base.

Play B) F4 takes the throw, continues toward third by 6'.  R1 runs through the base.

 

(If 6' isn't enough for you, use 10' or whatever).

 

A is legal and B is a FPSR violation?

 

On 4/20/2024 at 8:14 AM, johnnyg08 said:

Yep. Slide legally into the base or veer away from the fielder

That's a stupid interp (not directed at you, johnny).  There's no "interference" in either, and both has the same "safety concerns" (or lack thereof).  The ruling should be the same for both.

[johnnyg08]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

That's a stupid interp (not directed at you, johnny). 

No offense taken! 🙂

I actually like the interp. It requires the runner to essentially slide or avoid. 

The time was coming where an R1 was going to get dotted. There's only one reason they're going in standing and it's to distract the middle infielders. Plain and simple. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

No offense taken! 🙂

I actually like the interp. It requires the runner to essentially slide or avoid. 

The time was coming where an R1 was going to get dotted. There's only one reason they're going in standing and it's to distract the middle infielders. Plain and simple. 

There is another reason. They know they are out and there is no reason to slide since almost every pivot man they have seen has been to the 3B or outfield side of the base. Hasn't NCAA changed their interp to allow the ump to determine whether a safety concern is at issue and if not make no call? 

[Richvee]

25 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Hasn't NCAA changed their interp to allow the ump to determine whether a safety concern is at issue and if not make no call? 

Yes. Problem is some think it only applies when a runner is safe because of the example they give. 
 

Exception A runner need not slide directly onto a base as long as the runner slides or runs in a direction away from a fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder. The umpire may use judgement due to the unusual nature of a play such as when a runner does not slide and is safe at the base before the throw arrives or slides directly to a base from a position  not in a direct line between the bases , as long as there is no issue with safety or interference. Interference shall not be called. 
 

 

[Richvee]

On 4/20/2024 at 7:29 AM, noumpere said:

Play B) F4 takes the throw, continues toward third by 6'.  R1 runs through the base.

That exception on the NCAA rule seems to me to describe this type situation as well.