Umpiring questions

[LDS]

2 questions using USSSA rules.  Age 13 and 14.

1) Team batting has runner on 3rd with 2 outs.  Ground ball to shortstop, he fields the ball and throws a one hopper to 1st base, trying to scoop the throw at 1st the ball gets by 1st baseman and starts heading towards 1st base dugout.   The team batting occupies that dugout and the on deck batter intentionally stops the ball with his foot.  I called interference and allowed the run to score and called the runner at 1st base safe and kept him at first since he didn't try to advance.  Since stopping the ball was to the defenses advantage I didn't call anyone out.  Was that the right call?  Tournament director overruled my call and called the batter runner going to first out.

2) Balk on pickup off move question.  Right hander is engaged on the rubber.  If he turns to throw to 1st without stepping off the back of the rubber is it a balk if he faints the throw?  What else could make that a balk?  I thought I understood that rule but UIC and Tournament director told me that you don't have to necessarily step of the back of the rubber.  That lifting you toe, lifting you heal or doing the jump move when going to first is considered stepping off the rubber.  Now I'm totally confused.  Can some please help enlighten me?

[Tborze]

1 hour ago, LarryS said:

2 questions using USSSA rules.  Age 13 and 14.

1) Team batting has runner on 3rd with 2 outs.  Ground ball to shortstop, he fields the ball and throws a one hopper to 1st base, trying to scoop the throw at 1st the ball gets by 1st baseman and starts heading towards 1st base dugout.   The team batting occupies that dugout and the on deck batter intentionally stops the ball with his foot.  I called interference and allowed the run to score and called the runner at 1st base safe and kept him at first since he didn't try to advance.  Since stopping the ball was to the defenses advantage I didn't call anyone out.  Was that the right call?  Tournament director overruled my call and called the batter runner going to first out.

2) Balk on pickup off move question.  Right hander is engaged on the rubber.  If he turns to throw to 1st without stepping off the back of the rubber is it a balk if he faints the throw?  What else could make that a balk?  I thought I understood that rule but UIC and Tournament director told me that you don't have to necessarily step of the back of the rubber.  That lifting you toe, lifting you heal or doing the jump move when going to first is considered stepping off the rubber.  Now I'm totally confused.  Can some please help enlighten me?

1. Did R3 score b4 the INT?

2. TD is wrong! 

[LDS]

8 minutes ago, Tborze said:

1. Did R3 score b4 the INT?

2. TD is wrong! 

Yes, R3 scored before the INT.

[MadMax]

1. Typically, if INT is called against the offense, someone has to be Out. Since the INT occurred after the overthrow, that means that BR achieved 1B. That means that R3’s run is scored. That leaves BR as the only remaining Runner to call Out on that INT penalty, but it has to be treated as if BR was attempting to proceed to 2B. Time play, run scored, BR Out on TOI. 

2. The UIC and TD have no idea what they’re talking about. A jump turn is a part of a valid pickoff move to 1B, but it is (or should be) considered “as a pitcher”, not “as a fielder”. So he has to throw, not feint, and an overthrow into DBT is a 1-base award, not 2-bases. 
“Lift toe” or “lift heel”? Those are not valid disengagements. 

[Senor Azul]

When the offense intentionally touches a live ball it is a form of interference. How we penalize the act depends on whether there is a play happening at the time--not whether the act assists or hinders the defense. Intent is not part of the rule.

Sometimes an intentional touch of a live thrown (or pitched) ball by the offense is deemed not severe enough to warrant an interference penalty. When this so-called weak interference occurs, the ball is usually called dead, but no further penalty is assessed against a baserunner or a batter.

Since R3 had already scored and the batter-runner was not trying to advance, I would say you made the right call and the TD was wrong to call the batter-runner out--there was no play happening at the time.

[Senor Azul]

As for the pickoff question, your UIC and the TD are wrong. USSSA uses OBR rules and its rule 5.07(a)(1) Comment has just one way to legally disengage the pitcher's plate--by the pitcher stepping back with his pivot foot.

To step off the pitcher's plate, the pitcher must 1) step backward and place the pivot foot on the ground behind the pitcher's plate and 2) disengage the pivot foot before moving the free foot.

The jump step (turn) is legal and is considered to be in contact with the pitcher's plate so if the pitcher jump steps to first and does not throw it is a balk.

[BrainFreeze]

15 hours ago, LarryS said:

Tournament director overruled my call and called the batter runner going to first out.

Did you decide to ask tournament director for help, or did someone "appeal" after they disagreed with your ruling? 

If a "tournament director" "overruled" me, they would be umpiring the remainder of the game. 

 

[LDS]

1 hour ago, BrainFreeze said:

Did you decide to ask tournament director for help, or did someone "appeal" after they disagreed with your ruling? 

If a "tournament director" "overruled" me, they would be umpiring the remainder of the game. 

 

Head Coach for defensive team agreed with the INT call but did not agree with not calling anyone out.  He went to the Tournament Director.

[LDS]

3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

As for the pickoff question, your UIC and the TD are wrong. USSSA uses OBR rules and its rule 5.07(a)(1) Comment has just one way to legally disengage the pitcher's plate--by the pitcher stepping back with his pivot foot.

To step off the pitcher's plate, the pitcher must 1) step backward and place the pivot foot on the ground behind the pitcher's plate and 2) disengage the pivot foot before moving the free foot.

The jump step (turn) is legal and is considered to be in contact with the pitcher's plate so if the pitcher jump steps to first and does not throw it is a balk.

Thank you.  Very helpful.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, LarryS said:

Head Coach for defensive team agreed with the INT call but did not agree with not calling anyone out.  He went to the Tournament Director.

And I'd be telling the TD wtf are you doing?  Unless those are the specific protest procedures of this particular tournament, which would be ridiculous.

Procedure would normally be to tell you they're protesting a misapplication of the rule...then you would pause the game and bring in the TD/UIC - whoever is assigned to handle protests.

That person (and I've been the TD here) is SUPPOSED to have rule books with them to reference...and ideally, it's a bit of a committee (in tourneys I've been involved with it's a usually the UIC and a TD and maybe another umpire - and the role of the TD here is to provide input on tournament specific rules).

 

As far as the play in question...unless B/R was rounding first and making some kind of attempt to second, this is nothing but a "don't do that".  B/R is typically just overrunning first and going back to first, so there's no play to interfere with.  But, yes, if on the overthrow B/R made some kind of move to second, even if they then decide to return to first, they're live and in play and at risk of being put out...you COULD rule him out then.

[Velho]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

As far as the play in question...unless B/R was rounding first and making some kind of attempt to second, this is nothing but a "don't do that".  B/R is typically just overrunning first and going back to first, so there's no play to interfere with.  But, yes, if on the overthrow B/R made some kind of move to second, even if they then decide to return to first, they're live and in play and at risk of being put out...you COULD rule him out then.

I agree that's Fair Play Common Sense. Unfortunately we don't have a "Everyone freeze. Don't do that." rule to stand on.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Unfortunately we don't have a "Everyone freeze. Don't do that." rule to stand on.

You're the umpire...you can kill the play if you damned well please.  If you judge (and your judgment, by rule, can't be wrong or argued) that play is relaxed, and action is effectively over, you may kill the play...that's your prerogative as an umpire.

Under the guise of Game Management, you can also use "don't do that" any time you see fit.

 

[Thunderheads]

22 hours ago, LarryS said:

2) Balk on pickup off move question.  Right hander is engaged on the rubber.  If he turns to throw to 1st without stepping off the back of the rubber is it a balk if he faints the throw?  What else could make that a balk?  I thought I understood that rule but UIC and Tournament director told me that you don't have to necessarily step of the back of the rubber.  That lifting you toe, lifting you heal or doing the jump move when going to first is considered stepping off the rubber.  Now I'm totally confused.  Can some please help enlighten me?

The fact that a "UIC" and a TD have NO CLUE as to what they're talking about is disgusting.  And further, just cements peoples hatred for umpires.  These clowns perpetuate the myth that we don't have a clue and make us all look bad!  Insert explicative here!!!!!!!!! 

[MadMax]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:17 AM, MadMax said:

1. Typically, if INT is called against the offense, someone has to be Out.

Yeah, I said this 👆🏼… 

On 6/14/2023 at 1:14 PM, beerguy55 said:

You're the umpire...you can kill the play if you damned well please.  If you judge (and your judgment, by rule, can't be wrong or argued) that play is relaxed, and action is effectively over, you may kill the play...that's your prerogative as an umpire.

Under the guise of Game Management, you can also use "don't do that" any time you see fit.

 

… and @beerguy55 said the sentiment I wanted to express… 

Kill the play; don’t call interference! 

This isn’t a televised or sanctioned game (pro, collegiate, varsity, et. al.). Use discernment. Was an advantage gained or a potential play denied because the ODB stopped the ball? No. We don’t have to call interference! We don’t have to come up all big, lead with a booming, “That’s interference! Time! TIME!!!” and then start seeking Outs ta punish ‘em with. 

[maven]

On 6/13/2023 at 4:20 PM, LDS said:

That lifting you toe, lifting you heal or doing the jump move when going to first is considered stepping off the rubber. 

This myth has gained extremely widespread currency. I see kids at all levels, up to and including HS varsity, executing a jump turn and feinting, and it's never balked. I suspect that if an umpire called that a balk, (a) everyone on the field, including the other umpire, would look at him as if he had 2 heads, (b) several someones would try to convince him that he's wrong, because the pivot foot came off the rubber, and (c) in many contexts he would be improperly "overruled" by someone, likely someone responsible for paying him.

All of this is most unfortunate. When I was training umpires I always covered this move, but some of those guys are balk-phobic (usually because they lack confidence in their ability to explain why they called a balk). So they go with the flow.

[Umpire942]

"it hit their bucket!"

[SleptTilNoonLOL]

On 6/16/2023 at 11:29 AM, maven said:

This myth has gained extremely widespread currency. I see kids at all levels, up to and including HS varsity, executing a jump turn and feinting, and it's never balked. I suspect that if an umpire called that a balk, (a) everyone on the field, including the other umpire, would look at him as if he had 2 heads, (b) several someones would try to convince him that he's wrong, because the pivot foot came off the rubber, and (c) in many contexts he would be improperly "overruled" by someone, likely someone responsible for paying him.

All of this is most unfortunate. When I was training umpires I always covered this move, but some of those guys are balk-phobic (usually because they lack confidence in their ability to explain why they called a balk). So they go with the flow.

Wow really? I certainly work with quite a few guys who would not know to balk that, but they are the guys who are just weak umpires in general. I am surprised its to the point in your area where people would be surprised that was called. 

That might be the second most common balk I call, after the no-stop which is #1 by a mile. 

The move that fits your description in my area is the one where F1 does a jump turn feint to 1st with his back foot landing behind the rubber. If I called that a balk I would be looked at funny by almost everyone so I dont call it. Never been questioned yet. 

[kylehutson]

On 6/16/2023 at 10:29 AM, maven said:

I see kids at all levels, up to and including HS varsity, executing a jump turn and feinting, and it's never balked.

It is (and has been) in my games. Usually followed by the pitcher saying "but I landed behind the rubber". I haven't ever had any push-back from a coach more than I do on any balk call. ("whattaya mean? He came set!")