The top of the wall

[Kali]

I've been umpiring for 27 years now and I saw something during a high school playoff game that made me stop and think.  I was doing the plate in a three man crew.  At the plate meeting, when going over the ground rules we said, anything over the yellow (meaning the yellow bar on top of the outfield fence) would be a home run.  A fly ball was hit to center field.  It hit the yellow bar and bounced high in the air and was then caught by the center fielder.  This was not my catch/no-catch call and it was ruled a no-catch by U3.  After the play, I called the crew together to ask about this and both of my partners agreed that hitting the wall was the same as a ball hitting the ground and that it could no longer be "caught".  That's what we went with, but it sticks in my mind a bit.  Where is that written?  And if that's true, a ball hitting the top of the wall and bounding out of play would then not be a home run but a ground rule double?  Does anyone know a place in either the MLB of NFHS rule books that spells this out?

[maven]

For FED, check the awards table in rule 8. A HR leaves fair territory over the fence "in flight," which entails that it does not bounce. A ball that bounces over the fence (including ON the fence) is a 2-base award.

If you need more proof, start diving into the definition of "in flight" in "Batted Ball."

Other codes are the same, others can post the references.

I agree with U3's "no catch" call.

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, Kali said:

Does anyone know a place in either the MLB of NFHS rule books that spells this out?

FED:  2-6-1 ART. 1 . . . A batted or thrown ball is in flight until it has touched the ground or some object other than a fielder

 

The wall counts as "some object..."

[Jimurray]

7 hours ago, Kali said:

I've been umpiring for 27 years now and I saw something during a high school playoff game that made me stop and think.  I was doing the plate in a three man crew.  At the plate meeting, when going over the ground rules we said, anything over the yellow (meaning the yellow bar on top of the outfield fence) would be a home run.  A fly ball was hit to center field.  It hit the yellow bar and bounced high in the air and was then caught by the center fielder.  This was not my catch/no-catch call and it was ruled a no-catch by U3.  After the play, I called the crew together to ask about this and both of my partners agreed that hitting the wall was the same as a ball hitting the ground and that it could no longer be "caught".  That's what we went with, but it sticks in my mind a bit.  Where is that written?  And if that's true, a ball hitting the top of the wall and bounding out of play would then not be a home run but a ground rule double?  Does anyone know a place in either the MLB of NFHS rule books that spells this out?

The yellow line means nothing at most venues and is there to help determine the top of the fence. Do not allow reference to it as a HR determining factor at a plate meeting. There are exceptions at certain MLB stadiums that have wierd outfield configurations. Might be some others I don’t know about but the yellow on the top of a fence or wall means nothing. 

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, Kali said:

At the plate meeting, when going over the ground rules we said, anything over the yellow (meaning the yellow bar on top of the outfield fence) would be a home run.

Nope. Not the right thing to say. 

A ball going / touching over the yellow line is “Out of Play”; how it got there is crucial to what it is ruled to be. If in-flight (and this includes off a player(s) and no other objects or surfaces, ala José Canseco) = Home Run. If off the ground or a lower wall, fence, or object = “book ruled accordingly”. Was the ball batted? Thrown? How do the Ground Rules define that ball? More often than not, it is a “ground rule double”, but we just as often take for granted what that actually means. 

Where we have a yellow line dividing a monoplane surface (like on a batter’s eye, for example), the entirety of the yellow line, is in-play. A ball would have to touch above and separate from the yellow line to be out of play. 

Lots of focused observation and judgement going on. For this reason, simply and casually saying, “… above the yellow is a home run”, really puts your crew in a potentially bad situation, because surprisingly, some coaches take things literally. 

[JSam21]

6 hours ago, maven said:

For FED, check the awards table in rule 8. A HR leaves fair territory over the fence "in flight," which entails that it does not bounce. A ball that bounces over the fence (including ON the fence) is a 2-base award.

If you need more proof, start diving into the definition of "in flight" in "Batted Ball."

Other codes are the same, others can post the references.

I agree with U3's "no catch" call.

And I know you know this, but just for clarity, a fair batted ball that hits the top of the wall and continues out of play in fair territory, is a HR. A fair batted ball that hits the face of the wall and goes out of play (think snow/temporary fencing) or ball that hits the top of the wall and goes out of play in foul territory is 2 bases. 

[The Man in Blue]

😈  If it bounces off the top of the wall, it did not clear the wall.

[Jimurray]

27 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

😈  If it bounces off the top of the wall, it did not clear the wall.

The direction of the bounce determines whether it went out of the playing field in flight. 

[Senor Azul]

2021-2022 NCAA rule 7-6f Note

If a batted ball hits the top of the fence while in fair territory and then bounces over the fence, it is a home run.

According to the 2016 BRD all three codes have the following interpretation...

It is a home run if a batted ball hits on top of the outfield fence and then bounds over in fair territory.

It also states that the FED has had that interpretation since 1985 (Brad Rumble).

 

[The Man in Blue]

😈😈 What if it hits the top with backspin and comes back into play?

[noumpere]

38 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

😈😈 What if it hits the top with backspin and comes back into play?

Play on.  Why?  Because the rules makers decided that's the way they want it. 

[Jimurray]

41 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

😈😈 What if it hits the top with backspin and comes back into play?

Then it didn't leave the playing field in flight.

[beerguy55]

On 5/10/2023 at 6:02 PM, The Man in Blue said:

😈😈 What if it hits the top with backspin and comes back into play?

The top of the wall is still in play.  Out of play is "beyond" the wall.

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

The top of the wall is still in play.  Out of play is "beyond" the wall.

The top of the wall, because it is a wall in some MLB stadiums, is a gray area that as @noumpere references, has been defined by the rules makers. The boundary of the playing field being the perpendicular extension of the outfield fence does not cover all stadiums. MLBUM has an interp that a fair fly ball landing on the top of the outfield wall and coming to a stop is a ground rule double.

[beerguy55]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

The top of the wall, because it is a wall in some MLB stadiums, is a gray area that as @noumpere references, has been defined by the rules makers. The boundary of the playing field being the perpendicular extension of the outfield fence does not cover all stadiums. MLBUM has an interp that a fair fly ball landing on the top of the outfield wall and coming to a stop is a ground rule double.

And that's fine...but I'd submit it's not because the top of the wall is dead, per se...as we have seen in MLB games, a ball can bounce two or three times on top of the wall and if it comes back into the field it is live.  By extension, a ball that comes to rest on top of the wall SHOULD be live (and I suppose if the wall is high enough the batter would be able to round the bases without worry).   If they're ruling it a GRD I would submit that they are considering the ball to be "lodged" (or equivalent) when it comes to rest on top of the wall.   

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/16/2023 at 11:55 AM, Jimurray said:

The top of the wall, because it is a wall in some MLB stadiums, is a gray area that as @noumpere references, has been defined by the rules makers. The boundary of the playing field being the perpendicular extension of the outfield fence does not cover all stadiums. MLBUM has an interp that a fair fly ball landing on the top of the outfield wall and coming to a stop is a ground rule double.

A literal grey area.  See tonight's Cardinals-Brewers game.

Adames hits a ball that bounces on the top of the wall and continues away from home plate, hits a piece of concrete past the wall, and ricochets back into play ... Ground rule double. 

I can't find a clip yet.

[beerguy55]

10 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

A literal grey area.  See tonight's Cardinals-Brewers game.

Adames hits a ball that bounces on the top of the wall and continues away from home plate, hits a piece of concrete past the wall, and ricochets back into play ... Ground rule double. 

I can't find a clip yet.

HR called on the field...overturned under review, rule to be a live ball so Taylor was placed on second base...it hit the top of the wall and came back into the field...did not hit the concrete.  

 

https://www.mlb.com/gameday/brewers-vs-cardinals/2023/05/17/718131/final/wrap

 

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

HR called on the field...overturned under review, rule to be a live ball so Taylor was placed on second base...it hit the top of the wall and came back into the field...did not hit the concrete.  

 

https://www.mlb.com/gameday/brewers-vs-cardinals/2023/05/17/718131/final/wrap

 

 

It hit the top of the padding and then the front of the concrete wall and came back into play. Busch ground rules 3,4,5 violate the MLBUM interps but are allowed to supercede them. A ball first hitting the concrete wall and rebounding onto the field is a HR at Busch.

[Velho]

For those interested, the official ground rule of Busch Stadium from the 2022 MLB Umpire Media Guide (latest I have/can find)

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, Velho said:

For those interested, the official ground rule of Busch Stadium from the 2022 MLB Umpire Media Guide (latest I have/can find)

That differs from the Official Website. https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/dhhysvsyajsdrbsn5wfd.pdf

[Velho]

15 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That differs from the Official Website. https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/dhhysvsyajsdrbsn5wfd.pdf

Interesting. Thanks I didn't know that was posted like that.

Nothing different (in a conflicting sense) that I see. Everything from the 2022 Media Guide is in that link verbatim. The link then expands on top of the wall permutations and gets into things that are ground rules for all stadiums (which is in the Media Guide as well).

[beerguy55]

6 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It hit the top of the padding and then the front of the concrete wall and came back into play. Busch ground rules 3,4,5 violate the MLBUM interps but are allowed to supercede them. A ball first hitting the concrete wall and rebounding onto the field is a HR at Busch.

According to the ground rules any ball hitting the concrete at all is out of play - by extension they must have ruled on replay review that the ball didn't hit the concrete.

In fact, since the call on the field was an HR, they must have determined that finding conclusively, or they would not have overturned it.