Coach pre-emptively coming to me on FED 7-3-2

[SeeingEyeDog]

Coach comes to me after the 1st inning and says, "Blue, #12 is stepping out of the box when putting the ball in play." I said, "Coach, if we see it, we will call it." After the 3rd inning, I walk towards him to get baseballs and he uses that opportunity to say, "Blue, #12 is coming up next inning. If he steps out, puts the ball in play and you don't call it...I'm coming out and I want you to go to your partner. And please do not alert or warn the batter about this." I said, "Coach, I came over here to get baseballs. We have already discussed this and you are repeating yourself. Please do not mention this again."

#12 puts the ball in play and of course, now that we are in the 3rd inning...there's little chalk line remaining around the batter's box. I don't have him outside the box and the opposing coach remains in the dugout. After the inning, I called my partner over to make him aware of the situation. I briefly relayed everything to him and the game resumed.

In the 7th now, #12 puts the ball in play again and again I do not have him outside what I judge to be the batter's box. But, this time Coach asks for time, waits for time to be granted and then comes to me and says, "Since you didn't call it, I know you don't have it. Can you please check with your partner?" And I said, "Sure Coach..." I got together with my partner, he was in B. We chatted briefly, he had nothing else, I returned to the Coach asking for a final ruling and said, "Coach, the runner is safe." and he returned to the dugout and I went over to the other Coach and explained, "They were asking about whether the batter stepped out of the box and we have him safe."...and the game resumed and concluded without further incident.

So, my questions are as follows:

1) Anything to be done better or differently here in managing this situation?

2) Is appropriate to make my partner/crew aware of a situation like this? (I would want to know this if I wasn't on the plate so, that was my reasoning for taking it to my partner...) In the end, the Coach was completely civil and reasonable in his interaction with me, although I don't think any coach should be coming out to tell us what THEY see and what THEY think WE should be calling or looking for.

3) Should I have NOT gone to my partner? It's something 2 feet away from me. Would I go to my partner if I had a whacker at the plate? No...but, I thought there was some value in entertaining his ask so, I got together to make sure we had the call correct...

Thoughts, please? Oh...and if you ever have this? FED states "Hit the ball..." so, there is no language there about it must be a fair ball. Any contact with the bat on the baseball while either foot or knee is completely outside the box or touching the plate would be an immediate dead ball and the batter is out.

~Dawg  

[kylehutson]

22 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

1) Anything to be done better or differently here in managing this situation?

Nope. If that call is made it should be obvious to everybody on the field what is going on

23 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

2) Is appropriate to make my partner/crew aware of a situation like this?

It doesn't hurt. But again, they would have to be 100% absolutely positively sure that the foot was outside the box AND not in the air at the moment that the ball it struck.

I have called this twice in my umpiring career. The first time was coach-pitch (so I didn't have to watch for balls and strikes) and the batter lined up at the very, very front of the batters box. Calling it was still a SH*#storm. The other was a bunt when the pitch was far in the other batters box and the batter stepped completely in front of me. THAT time I didn't hear any complaining.

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Thoughts, please? Oh...and if you ever have this? FED states "Hit the ball..." so, there is no language there about it must be a fair ball. Any contact with the bat on the baseball while either foot or knee is completely outside the box or touching the plate would be an immediate dead ball and the batter is out.

 

That's in all codes.

 

It's one of the two times there's a difference between a "foul tip"and a "swing and a miss"

[Thunderheads]

OK....hang on a second ......

How is #12 putting the ball in play?  I don't understand what's going on here

[maven]

Yeah, I don't get it either, Jeff. Being out of the box is nothing unless he leaves the box during the pitch and delays, or he hits the ball with something touching completely outside the box (and far enough that the BU can see it, because PU has better things to watch than the batter's toenails).

[Catch18]

If he steps out, puts the ball in play and you don't call it...I'm coming out and I want you to go to your partner. And please do not alert or warn the batter about this." I said, "Coach, I came over here to get baseballs. We have already discussed this and you are repeating yourself. Please do not mention this again."


"Since you didn't call it, I know you don't have it. Can you please check with your partner?"

I would say it didn’t necessarily hurt anything for you to go to your partner. But in doing so, he controlled you.

“I want.” Yeah, you should have told him, “thanks Mike, but don’t tell me what to call.” Also, you already told him it wasn’t going to be discussed again.

Secondly, going by him saying, “I know you don’t have it,” he doesn’t get to tell the umpire what the umpire does or doesn’t see. Did he mean you missed it, you saw it and didn’t call it, or saw it and there was no call - and he was fishing?

[SH0102]

@Thunderheads@mavenI believe the OP is meaning the batter hit the ball (“put in play”), not what we as umpires do.

But as others noted, putting ball in play is not required to be out here, simply fouling the ball while being on the plate or outside the box would be an out as well.

This is a call that, for me, is tough as HPU unless it’s a bunt and even then is iffy.  I am tracking the pitch, why would I leave the pitch and stare at his feet on the slim chance he’s out of the box?

this is one of the few calls (that happen at the plate) that I would want my BU to grab, and grab immediately and big, and he darn well better be 100% to make it.  Similar to “can you see if the ball hit his foot?” , this can be shut down with “he’d have called it if he saw it” 

[Velho]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

13 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Thoughts, please? Oh...and if you ever have this? FED states "Hit the ball..." so, there is no language there about it must be a fair ball. Any contact with the bat on the baseball while either foot or knee is completely outside the box or touching the plate would be an immediate dead ball and the batter is out.

 

That's in all codes.

For clarity: contact while touching the plate is not an automatic out in LL. It's only foot on the ground out of the box.

[aaluck]

13 hours ago, kylehutson said:

I have called this twice in my umpiring career

I have also called it twice as well and when it happens it is usually VERY obvious.  If I'm going to call it it better be VERY obvious.

Both times were in the same game, same kid.  Slow varsity pitcher and this kid was on the front chalk line before the pitch was thrown.  When he hit the ball his foot was about a foot out of the box.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Sorry, @Thunderheads and @maven... @SH0102 has the correct context. The coach was using the phrase "put it into play" to refer to putting the bat on the ball and not the umpiring mechanic of putting the ball into play. My apology for the confusion...

~Dawg

 

[Kevin_K]

I have grabbed this call less than a handful of times in my career. When I have, it is obvious to all those paying attention that the batter was not in the box when making contact.

A few times coaches have asked about batters making contact while out of the batters box. I have said that I would keep an eye on it but I also made it clear to the DHC that my attention could be focused on the pitch or on the BR's feet, but not both. The manner in which this message is delivered is important though. They don't know our mechanics so sometimes a little explanation goes a long way to their understanding of why it's something that is not usually on our radar unless it's egregious.

[The Man in Blue]

"Ball!"

"What do you mean, ball?  That was right down the middle!"

"Mike, you wanted me to watch his feet.  I can't watch his feet and the ball."

Seriously though, I'm not sure I have ever called this in baseball.  Softball is a different story because of slap hitters.  Earlier this season I got the same girl twice in one game, and it was OBVIOUS.

Turf is a little different as you have the line all the time.  On dirt?  Ha.  Any smudge of chalk is going to constitute a line for me.  If the coach wants to chalk it each inning, that is fine with me.

[MadMax]

On 5/1/2023 at 7:47 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Thoughts, please?

You asked... 

On 5/1/2023 at 7:47 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

"Coach, the runner is safe." and he returned to the dugout and I went over to the other Coach and explained, "They were asking about whether the batter stepped out of the box and we have him safe."...

He's a batter, not a runner (or Batter-Runner), yet. The make-contact-with-ball-out-of-box rule applies to him as a Batter, not as a Runner. 

Now, let's say that he pounds a pitch straight down into the ground, or off the plate, and leaves the box, thus becoming a Runner (BR, technically). The batted ball hits him in or over Fair territory. Well, that's INT. And, funny how this works out, it is the same as the batted ball hitting another Runner in or over Fair territory before passing a (in)fielder. That's a Runner, because his status as a Batter changes after he puts the ball in play (or receives Ball 4), not when. 

And it's a "that's nothing", or "not out of the box", not "safe". Safe is a determination upon a Runner touching (1B on first-time-by or HP; and staying in contact with at 3B and 2B, and 1B on subsequent touchings) a base when a play is made upon him, either beating the throw (if forced or at 1B on first-time-by) or beating the tag. If he's Out, he's out because he made illegal contact while outside of the batter's box. 

It's akin to a Runner in a Run-down between 1B and 2B, and a fielder makes a tag attempt. Sure, we'll give the safe mechanic, and likely bellow "No tag!", but is the Runner technically Safe (yet)? No, not yet... he still hasn't reached a base yet. So, we'd be a fool to bellow "Safe!" at that point. 

So when illegal contact out of the box is asked about, we can simply reply, "I don't have him out of the box", or "He's legal, coach." Not "safe". 

[BLarson]

I don't think coaches know what it means to be "in the batter's box"
A lot of coaches think he's out of the box if any part of his foot is out of the lines.

I only get get this when we play on turf fields.

[The Man in Blue]

@BLarson, you forgot one distinguishing characteristic of a batter who is out of the box: they only play for the other team.  MY batters are NEVER out of the box.

[TheRockawayKid]

On 5/2/2023 at 4:50 PM, Kevin_K said:

I have grabbed this call less than a handful of times in my career. When I have, it is obvious to all those paying attention that the batter was not in the box when making contact.

A few times coaches have asked about batters making contact while out of the batters box. I have said that I would keep an eye on it but I also made it clear to the DHC that my attention could be focused on the pitch or on the BR's feet, but not both. The manner in which this message is delivered is important though. They don't know our mechanics so sometimes a little explanation goes a long way to their understanding of why it's something that is not usually on our radar unless it's egregious.

The only time I have had it happen to me is on a drag bunt/running bunt, where the batter is really moving out of the box.