Bases Loaded, 3-2 count, 2 outs

[Guest Joe C]

This is in a high school game...Like i said above, it’s 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter, and bases are loaded. The pitcher is pitching out of the wind-up. All of the runners start moving when the pitcher starts his wind-up..as they should. The runner on 3rd gets a real big jump and the batter jumps out of batter’s box as the pitch is delivered. The pitch was very high and the ump called a ball. So, it should be a walk and all runners move up. The opposing coach comes out to talk to umpire. The umps get together and call the batter out for leaving the batter’s box early. Someone help me if i’m wrong, or did the umps totally blow this call? Thank you

[The Man in Blue]

They got it right after they got together.  But the effort to paint the umps as having "totally blown the call" is duly noted by the aggrieved.

7-3-1

[maven]

9 hours ago, Guest Joe C said:

The umps get together and call the batter out for leaving the batter’s box early.

There is no such rule in HS baseball.

[beerguy55]

9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

They got it right after they got together.  But the effort to paint the umps as having "totally blown the call" is duly noted by the aggrieved.

7-3-1

The batter was ready.  All of the above applies to before the pitch, not during the pitch.  If anything, him leaving the box here would apply to the next pitch, not the one in progress.  

Besides, on a high pitch, maybe the batter got scared and was forced out by the pitch.

Likewise, on an R3 stealing, the batter jumping out of the box as the pitch comes doesn't make it a strike.

In either scenario...calling a strike is wrong here...and calling the batter out "for leaving early" is absolutely wrong.

[The Man in Blue]

NFHS 2023 Case play 7.3.1 Situation D

B1 steps out of the batter's box (a) without requesting time, or (b) after he has requested time, or (c) fails to enter the batter's box within 20 seconds.  RULING: In (a), the umpire shall call a strike if he feels B1 delayed the game.  In (b), if the umpire grants time, the 20-second count will begin again as soon as the ball is declared "live."  If time is not granted by the umpire and B1 steps out of the batter's box a strike shall be called on B1 if he delays the game.  In (c), the umpire shall call a strike.  The pitcher does not have to throw a pitch.

Also, see 6-2-4d ... While in the balk rule, this supports the case.  In fact, not only is it a strike, but we could possibly have two strikes on one pitch.

 

... and to get really deep in the mud ... you could also have an ejection under that 3-3-1n penalty.

[The Man in Blue]

18 hours ago, Guest Joe C said:

The umps get together and call the batter out for leaving the batter’s box early. 

 

9 hours ago, maven said:

There is no such rule in HS baseball.

 

I am assuming the OP meant they called the third strike (thus calling the batter out), not that they actually called him out for leaving the box.

[beerguy55]

30 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

 

I am assuming the OP meant they called the third strike (thus calling the batter out), not that they actually called him out for leaving the box.

Key words in the rulings you cite are "if he delays the game"

He can't, in any universe, by any imaginable standard, be delaying the game on a 3-2 pitch after the pitching motion has started.

On any other count it would be poor judgment to determine a delay based on the act alone.

It would also be poor judgment to rule a delay/strike on a batter evacuating the box on an R3 steal of home.

The balk rule doesn't apply as his action didn't impact/influence the pitcher.

[The Man in Blue]

The balk rule 6-2-4d has nothing to do with delaying the game.  It cites back to 7-3-1, but it does not require a delay.  7-3-1 contains two distinct violations: (1) not being ready within 20 seconds and (2) not keeping one foot in the box during the entire at bat.  They are not parts of the same violation. 

This is specifically about the batter leaving during the pitch, not a direct delay.  If the batter is walking away during the pitch, he is not in the box.  The violation it refers to in 7-3-1 is not keeping one foot in the box (hence the differences in the balk rule about one foot or two feet).  

The biggest issue here is safety.  By walking out, either the batter is not remaining alert or is going to cause an issue with the pitcher's concentration.  Either way, we have a safety concern.

EDIT: I should have initially posted 6-2-4d with my first reply.  Since it referred back to 7-3-1, I shorthanded it.  My bad.

[Tborze]

When the batter leaves the box during the pitching motion, and the pitch is delivered, the zone is open to interpretation!  

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, Tborze said:

When the batter leaves the box during the pitching motion, and the pitch is delivered, the zone is open to interpretation!  

Not under FED.

[aaluck]

14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Not under FED.

Please explain why you think 6-2-4(d) is applicable in this situation.  There is no mention in the OP of the pitcher "stoping or hesitating" his delivery as a result of the batters actions.  If a batter vacates the box after delivery I'm calling it either a ball or strike (probably a strike if its anywhere close).

I don't see how they called the batter out here.

[834k3r]

Personally, I think the scenario in the OP is nearly identical to a situation I had last week. As the pitcher started his delivery, the batter asked for time (didn't wait for a response from me) and stepped out of the box. I didn't grant time. Pitch was middle-middle; easiest strike I've called all season.

[Vegas_Ump]

Is it possible that the batter can see what's happening, and he is getting out of the way lest he be charged with BI?

The PU should call the pitch on its merits--looks like ball 4.  [Although I have been known to grow the strike zone when the batter backs out.......]  Opportunity for a lot of judgement.  

Mike

Las Vegas

[humanbackstop19]

Where in the OP was the game delayed?  That is the most important part of the spirit of the batter's box rule.   If a coach could protest, they would win this one.  The batter's action did not delay the P from delivering a legal pitch or any of the runner's progression on the 3-2-2 count.  

 

 

[JHumbert15]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

Please explain why you think 6-2-4(d) is applicable in this situation.  There is no mention in the OP of the pitcher "stoping or hesitating" his delivery as a result of the batters actions.  If a batter vacates the box after delivery I'm calling it either a ball or strike (probably a strike if its anywhere close).

I don't see how they called the batter out here.

It's applicable becuase it cites 7-3-1 AND despite it being a balk rule, it contains a provision that isn't really related to balking.

Here is 6-2-4d-1:

"failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery; [WE DON'T CARE]

1. If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery because the batter steps out of the box (a) with one foot or (b) with both feet or (c) holds up his hand to request “Time,” it shall not be a balk. In (a) and (c), there is no penalty on either the batter or the pitcher. The umpire shall call “Time” and begin play anew. In (b), a strike shall be called on the batter for violation of 7- 3-1. In (a), (b) and (c), if the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains live. Thus, two strikes are called on the batter in (b). If the umpire judges the batter’s action to be a deliberate attempt to create a balk, he will penalize according to 3-3-1n."

I've highlighted the "second" provision. You can't balk if the ball is legally delivered, so that proves this part isn't related to the balk rule. 

It also cites back to 7-3-1:

"Delay the game by failing to take his position promptly in the - batter’s box within 20 seconds. [<-WE DON'T CARE] The batter must keep at least one foot in the batter’s box throughout the time at bat."

I agree that this is not a delay of game. But, the rule is clear in saying that one foot must be kept in the box. Sure, that applies to between pitches, but based on how this is written, I also belive it applies during the pitch too. "Throughout a time at bat" includes during action... so stepping out during a pitch violates this.

Why?

Becuase of 6-2-4d-1 where I highlighted that if the pitcher legally delivers the ball, and the batter has 1 foot out of the box, it's a strike.

I think the crew got this right. 

It's a dumb rule. It should just be calling the pitch as it may be, but if you put these rules together, I think they have it right.

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, JHumbert15 said:

It's applicable becuase it cites 7-3-1 AND despite it being a balk rule, it contains a provision that isn't really related to balking.

Here is 6-2-4d-1:

If you're going to highlight and emphasize stuff, don't ignore the stuff that hurts your argument.

" If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery because the batter steps out of the box"

if the pitcher doesn't stop or hesitate in his delivery nothing else after that matters, it's moot.

To 7-3-1

"B1 steps out of the batter's box (a) without requesting time, or (b) after he has requested time, or (c) fails to enter the batter's box within 20 seconds.  RULING: In (a), the umpire shall call a strike if he feels B1 delayed the game.  In (b), if the umpire grants time, the 20-second count will begin again as soon as the ball is declared "live."  If time is not granted by the umpire and B1 steps out of the batter's box a strike shall be called on B1 if he delays the game.  In (c), the umpire shall call a strike. 

7-3-1 says the batter must leave the box, delay the game AND not meet any of the exceptions.  All three conditions must be met.  If the pitch is already in flight, or at the very least the pitching delivery has started and is uninterrupted, the batter can't delay here - the pitch is on the way.  He might delay for the next pitch, but not this one.

 

The delaying of the game is elemental here...when you put 7-3-1 and 6-2-4d together, the logical conclusion is that the batter is delaying the game by causing the pitcher to hesitate.  No hesitation, no delay.  Call the pitch on its merits.

 

EDIT: I just can't see that FED ever intended for the batter to be given a strike (if not two strikes) for evacuating the box during a pitch on R3 stealing home.  That would be a very poor interpretation and an even poorer execution/administration of the rule.

[Senor Azul]

The FED does rule on this question differently than OBR and NCAA.  Under high school rules, if the batter steps out with one foot and the pitcher delivers, it's a strike regardless of the location of the pitch. If the batter steps out with two feet and the pitcher delivers, it's a strike regardless of the location of the pitch, AND IF THE BATTER DELAYS THE GAME IN THE JUDGMENT OF THE UMPIRE, then a second strike shall be issued.

And how can we be sure the FED wants the batter to stay in the box? Well, in addition to the rule and case play already posted there are two other case plays in the current Case Book that tell us that if the pitcher completes his delivery after the batter steps out the pitch is to be called a strike no matter the location.

5.2.1 SITUATION A: After F1 has started his delivery, B1 steps out of the batter’s box without being granted “Time.” RULING: If F1 delivers a legal pitch, the umpire shall call the pitch a strike regardless of the location. A second strike may be called, if, in the umpire’s judgment, B1 caused unnecessary delay. The ball remains live. Whether time is granted to the batter shall be umpire judgment.

6.2.4 SITUATION I:  With R3 on third base, F1 starts the pitching motion and B2 requests "Time," but the umpire does not grant "Time." B2 steps out of the batter's box with both feet and (a) F1 delivers a pitch, (b) does not deliver the pitch or (c) throws a wild pitch. RULING:  (a) The umpire shall call two strikes on B2, one on the pitch, and one for stepping out of the box. In (b), the umpire shall call a strike on B2 for stepping out of the batter's box. The balk is nullified. In (c), two strikes shall be called on B2, one on the pitch and one for stepping out. The ball remains live. (7-3-1 PENALTY) 

[beerguy55]

10 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

The FED does rule on this question differently than OBR and NCAA.  Under high school rules, if the batter steps out with one foot and the pitcher delivers, it's a strike regardless of the location of the pitch. If the batter steps out with two feet and the pitcher delivers, it's a strike regardless of the location of the pitch, AND IF THE BATTER DELAYS THE GAME IN THE JUDGMENT OF THE UMPIRE, then a second strike shall be issued.

And how can we be sure the FED wants the batter to stay in the box? Well, in addition to the rule and case play already posted there are two other case plays in the current Case Book that tell us that if the pitcher completes his delivery after the batter steps out the pitch is to be called a strike no matter the location.

5.2.1 SITUATION A: After F1 has started his delivery, B1 steps out of the batter’s box without being granted “Time.” RULING: If F1 delivers a legal pitch, the umpire shall call the pitch a strike regardless of the location. A second strike may be called, if, in the umpire’s judgment, B1 caused unnecessary delay. The ball remains live. Whether time is granted to the batter shall be umpire judgment.

6.2.4 SITUATION I:  With R3 on third base, F1 starts the pitching motion and B2 requests "Time," but the umpire does not grant "Time." B2 steps out of the batter's box with both feet and (a) F1 delivers a pitch, (b) does not deliver the pitch or (c) throws a wild pitch. RULING:  (a) The umpire shall call two strikes on B2, one on the pitch, and one for stepping out of the box. In (b), the umpire shall call a strike on B2 for stepping out of the batter's box. The balk is nullified. In (c), two strikes shall be called on B2, one on the pitch and one for stepping out. The ball remains live. (7-3-1 PENALTY) 

6.2.4 applies to balks (which turn out to be non-balks) that were caused by the batter stepping out, and I'm pretty sure 5.2.1 does as well, assuming it's addressing whether or not it should be an immediate dead ball or not...that is, because of batter's action it's not a balk, so the ball remains live.  If the batter stepping out/calling time/etc does not invoke a pause/stop/balk by the pitcher these don't come into play.

[The Man in Blue]

I've been wondering what happened to @Senor Azul!  Hope all is well with you!  (And I was hoping this curious incident would bring you back since I don't have the library of case play knowledge that you do.) 

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If you're going to highlight and emphasize stuff, don't ignore the stuff that hurts your argument.

" If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery because the batter steps out of the box"

EDIT: I just can't see that FED ever intended for the batter to be given a strike (if not two strikes) for evacuating the box during a pitch on R3 stealing home.  That would be a very poor interpretation and an even poorer execution/administration of the rule.

 

There is little doubt the FED book could be written better, but keep in mind that the articles are NOT topic headings.  Things do not go together just because they are in the same article.  Grammar and punctuation matter.

7-3-1 is ... 

Rule 7 Batting

Section 3 Batting Infractions -- A Batter Shall Not:

Article 1 (two distinct sentences)

(Sentence 1) Delay the game by failing to take his position promptly in the batters box within 20 seconds.

(Sentence 2) The batter must keep at least one foot in the batter's box throughout the at bat.

Then we have a litany of exceptions which allow the batter to leave the box, many of which can not happen while the batter "is delaying": swinging at a pitch, avoiding being hit by a pitch, drag bunting, during a play at any base, when the pitcher or catcher leaves their position, when "Time" is called.  

It is pretty evident that the intent of 7-3-1 is to keep the game moving, but the rule is not about specific acts which delay the game. 

Granted, it can be confusing since the penalty again mentions "failure to be ready" and contains the list you cite which, I will agree, seems as if all three conditions need to be met.  However, it is pretty evident by the rule(s) and case plays what the actual intent is.

 I actually considered the argument of "I was getting out of the way of the runner who was stealing" ... but that doesn't hold water with a 3-2, 2 outs, bases loaded situation.  Any other case and I would agree it would have to be considered.

[umpstu]

44 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I've been wondering what happened to @Senor Azul!  Hope all is well with you!  (And I was hoping this curious incident would bring you back since I don't have the library of case play knowledge that you do.) 

Glad to see him as well.

[JHumbert15]

4 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If you're going to highlight and emphasize stuff, don't ignore the stuff that hurts your argument.

" If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery because the batter steps out of the box"

if the pitcher doesn't stop or hesitate in his delivery nothing else after that matters, it's moot.

To 7-3-1

"B1 steps out of the batter's box (a) without requesting time, or (b) after he has requested time, or (c) fails to enter the batter's box within 20 seconds.  RULING: In (a), the umpire shall call a strike if he feels B1 delayed the game.  In (b), if the umpire grants time, the 20-second count will begin again as soon as the ball is declared "live."  If time is not granted by the umpire and B1 steps out of the batter's box a strike shall be called on B1 if he delays the game.  In (c), the umpire shall call a strike. 

7-3-1 says the batter must leave the box, delay the game AND not meet any of the exceptions.  All three conditions must be met.  If the pitch is already in flight, or at the very least the pitching delivery has started and is uninterrupted, the batter can't delay here - the pitch is on the way.  He might delay for the next pitch, but not this one.

 

The delaying of the game is elemental here...when you put 7-3-1 and 6-2-4d together, the logical conclusion is that the batter is delaying the game by causing the pitcher to hesitate.  No hesitation, no delay.  Call the pitch on its merits.

 

EDIT: I just can't see that FED ever intended for the batter to be given a strike (if not two strikes) for evacuating the box during a pitch on R3 stealing home.  That would be a very poor interpretation and an even poorer execution/administration of the rule.

Not sure where I see anything that hurts my argument, since the provisions in 7-3-1 has 2 different sentences, one of which I’ve already explained (the second one), and @The Man in Blue explained as well. A different sentence that is just in a bad spot which applies to something else. It’s just the FED book being the way it is.

 

Also not sure why you continue to bring up “delaying the game” when part of 7-3-1 literally says he “delivers a legal pitch”… where is the delay? You said it’s not delay yourself… so I feel like you ignored the part I (and TMIB) listed about the pitch being legally delivered. That second sentence about the batter needing to keep a foot in applies here… or we go to a penalty which is a strike regardless of location or 2 strikes if B1 steps out w/ both feet.

Additionally, Sr Azul has supported The Man in Blue and I’s argument with his case plays.

[beerguy55]

 

14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 I actually considered the argument of "I was getting out of the way of the runner who was stealing" ... but that doesn't hold water with a 3-2, 2 outs, bases loaded situation.  Any other case and I would agree it would have to be considered.

The problem being, if we take 6-2-4 to apply to any delivered pitch then you must call a strike (two strikes?) on said batter.  R3 stealing is not one of the exceptions in 7-3-1.  You can't consider it any case, if we follow the rules and guidance as interpreted above.

And if you would consider it, it should be considered even in the OP scenario...evacuating the box with R3 stealing is reactionary, not always logical...no different than trying to avoid a pitch (and why sometimes our attempt to avoid the pitch takes us right into the path of said pitch)...and there are many times a batter wasn't truly "forced" out of the box by the pitch, but we almost always let that go as a natural overreaction. Christ - Josh Donaldson makes a Federal Case on any pitch in the same zip code as he is.

[The Man in Blue]

11 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

 

The problem being, if we take 6-2-4 to apply to any delivered pitch then you must call a strike (two strikes?) on said batter.  R3 stealing is not one of the exceptions in 7-3-1.  You can't consider it any case, if we follow the rules and guidance as interpreted above.

And if you would consider it, it should be considered even in the OP scenario...evacuating the box with R3 stealing is reactionary, not always logical...no different than trying to avoid a pitch (and why sometimes our attempt to avoid the pitch takes us right into the path of said pitch)...and there are many times a batter wasn't truly "forced" out of the box by the pitch, but we almost always let that go as a natural overreaction. Christ - Josh Donaldson makes a Federal Case on any pitch in the same zip code as he is.

It does apply to any delivered pitch. 

You are correct that a runner stealing is it is not listed as an exception.  I didn't say that it was, just that it has to be considered in that scenario.  One of the exceptions is when the pitcher or catcher is attempting a play at any base.  A play at the plate allows the batter to leave without penalty (plus, we know he is required to vacate on a play).  If the pitch is coming in and the catcher is moving to position himself to attempt a play, I am going to give the batter leave if he walks out (I still have to call the pitch and should "hold the zone" to call it appropriately).

If the pitch and the runner are coming in and the batter steps out and the catcher makes no different movement or NO play is attempted, I would say we have a strike (or two) regardless of where the pitch is. 

(Also, if the pitcher steps off to make the play, we don't have a pitch and the batter is excused.)

[aaluck]

What "issue" has been caused by the batter leaving the box in the OP?

Did it cause the pitcher to delay or hesitate?  No, so 6-4-2(d) does not apply.

Did it delay the game in any way?  No, so 7-3-1 does not apply.

Did it cause a balk? No, again 6-4-2(d) does not apply.

Did it interfere with the catcher's ability to make a play on the runner? No, so no interference rule applies.

So why are we applying rules that address these situations, when none of these situations arose during the pitch/play?

I'm with @beerguy55on this one (right or wrong) and I'm not saying @JHumbert15 and @The Man in Blue are wrong.  I have a walk here as the pitch was called ball four.

How many of us have done a JV game where the kid bails out of the box on a curve ball or a ball that's about to hit him?  Have any of you called 2 strikes?  If not, I guess we need to start if we are going to apply 6-4-2(d).

[The Man in Blue]

Ummm ... because the question was about the batter vacating the box and the rule is specifically about the batter staying in the box?  It isn't specifically about delaying the game (though it can fall under that) or causing balks (though it can be tied to that). 

I'm not sure how many different times or ways that can be spelled out. We've had the rule cited and explained multiple times along with three different case plays ... I honestly don't know what more to tell you on this one.  I guess ask your local or state interpreter if you want.  Or don't call it if you don't want to, but don't claim that the very specific rule does not apply. 

If a batter bails out on a curve ball or is knocked down by a pitch, that falls under being forced out of the box by the pitch.  It is a granted exception.  (Sorry, I thought I stated that when @beerguy55 brought it up, but it looks as if I did not.)