Deflecting a ball down the line with dirt.

[spark2212]

So let's say there's a roller down the first or third-base line. The fielders want it to roll foul. Obviously if they touch the ball it's fair, and they can't blow on it, but what happens if they pile up the dirt in front of the ball to deflect it into foul territory. Is that allowed? Is it the same as touching the ball? I can't find a rule on this, and it feels like a bit of an oversight. 

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, spark2212 said:

So let's say there's a roller down the first or third-base line. The fielders want it to roll foul. Obviously if they touch the ball it's fair, and they can't blow on it, but what happens if they pile up the dirt in front of the ball to deflect it into foul territory. Is that allowed? Is it the same as touching the ball? I can't find a rule on this, and it feels like a bit of an oversight. 

It's only an oversight in CalvinBall.  The rule book can't cover every little thing. 

Use whatever the new 9.01(c) is and rule the ball fair.

 

 

[maven]

Happened in an MLB game, someone will post the clip. It was ruled fair.

[beerguy55]

8 hours ago, spark2212 said:

So let's say there's a roller down the first or third-base line. The fielders want it to roll foul. Obviously if they touch the ball it's fair, and they can't blow on it, but what happens if they pile up the dirt in front of the ball to deflect it into foul territory. Is that allowed? Is it the same as touching the ball? I can't find a rule on this, and it feels like a bit of an oversight. 

Common sense.  If blowing on a ball isn't allowed, why would creating an off ramp be?  No, they can't use their shoe to make a trough directing the ball into foul territory either.  And you can't stamp your foot to vibrate the ball into foul territory.  None of those are in the rule book

In short, the fielder can't create the force/impetus that directs the ball foul....and the runner can't create the force/impetus that directs the ball fair.

[Jimurray]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's only an oversight in CalvinBall.  The rule book can't cover every little thing. 

Use whatever the new 9.01(c) is and rule the ball fair.

 

 

OBR has a J-R interp that blowing, digging or trenching makes a ball over fair territory fair. Fed has an interp that blowing is touching. 

[spark2212]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's only an oversight in CalvinBall.  The rule book can't cover every little thing. 

Use whatever the new 9.01(c) is and rule the ball fair.

 

 

9.01(c)? Isn't that about the official scorer?

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Common sense.  If blowing on a ball isn't allowed, why would creating an off ramp be?  No, they can't use their shoe to make a trough directing the ball into foul territory either.  And you can't stamp your foot to vibrate the ball into foul territory.  None of those are in the rule book

In short, the fielder can't create the force/impetus that directs the ball foul....and the runner can't create the force/impetus that directs the ball fair.

Off ramp and trough are hilarious.  Already got my day off to a good start.

[Kevin_K]

14 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's only an oversight in CalvinBall. 

Not true. It is clearly addressed as are all situations and their resolutions. Please refrain from the MSU approach to the rules of Calvin Ball. 

[Senor Azul]

A fielder cannot interfere with the course of a batted ball by official professional interpretation. Here’s how it appears in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 10.3, p. 158):

"When a batted ball is rolling fair down the foul line between home plate and either first or third base and a fielder stoops down over the ball and blows on it or in any other manner does some act that in the judgment of the umpire causes the ball to roll onto foul territory, the umpire shall rule a fair ball. The ball is alive and in play."

I know of only three instances of this shenanigan occurring and the interesting thing is that all involved the Kansas City Royals. The most famous instance, of course, is when Lenny Randle actually succeeded in blowing the ball foul in a game between the Mariners and Royals in 1981.

In 1987, Kevin Seitzer of the Royals tried it in a game against the Twins. Finally, in a spring training game in 2012 between the Dodgers and Royals Jerry Hairston tried it.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 228, p. 155):

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  A fielder’s blowing on the ball is the same as touching it. The umpire will rule fair/foul based on where the ball was when the fielder committed the act.

2008 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 1: With runners on first and second and no outs, the batter bunts a slow roller down the third-base line. The third baseman, seeing that he has no play on any of the runners, starts blowing on the ball from his hands and knees, trying to make the ball go foul. The ball eventually rolls into foul territory where it comes to rest. RULING: This is a fair ball. The fielder is using artificial means to induce the ball to become foul. As soon as a fielder blew on the ball, it would be judged to be the same as if he had touched it. So, if the ball was on fair ground when he blew on it, the ball is fair; if the ball was over foul ground when he blew on it, it would be foul. (2-5-1, 2-16-1)

[Jimurray]

41 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 BRD (section 228, p. 155):

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  A fielder’s blowing on the ball is the same as touching it. The umpire will rule fair/foul based on where the ball was when the fielder committed the act.

2008 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 1: With runners on first and second and no outs, the batter bunts a slow roller down the third-base line. The third baseman, seeing that he has no play on any of the runners, starts blowing on the ball from his hands and knees, trying to make the ball go foul. The ball eventually rolls into foul territory where it comes to rest. RULING: This is a fair ball. The fielder is using artificial means to induce the ball to become foul. As soon as a fielder blew on the ball, it would be judged to be the same as if he had touched it. So, if the ball was on fair ground when he blew on it, the ball is fair; if the ball was over foul ground when he blew on it, it would be foul. (2-5-1, 2-16-1)

Anyone see the loophole in the FED interp?

 

[Velho]

20 hours ago, Jimurray said:

21 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

So, if the ball was on fair ground when he blew on it, the ball is fair; if the ball was over foul ground when he blew on it, it would be foul. (2-5-1, 2-16-1)

Anyone see the loophole in the FED interp?

The fact that this says a ball that is hanging over the line but touching foul ground is 'foul'?

[The Man in Blue]

20 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Anyone see the loophole in the FED interp?

 

I'm not seeing it ... Over foul ground? (Because a fair ball can be over foul ground.)

But you said loophole meaning it would make it legal ... yeah, not seeing it.  Breath isn't artificial?

[Jimurray]

35 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I'm not seeing it ... Over foul ground? (Because a fair ball can be over foul ground.)

But you said loophole meaning it would make it legal ... yeah, not seeing it.  Breath isn't artificial?

The defense would like to make a good fair bunt foul and blowing on it makes it fair. The defense would also like to keep a good bunt that was rolling foul from coming fair and blows on it, successfully making it foul. 

[maven]

14 hours ago, Jimurray said:

The defense would also like to keep a good bunt that was rolling foul from coming fair and blows on it, successfully making it foul. 

Not a loophole. Fielders do this all the time with their gloves—why would they be penalized for doing it with their breath?

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, maven said:

Not a loophole. Fielders do this all the time with their gloves—why would they be penalized for doing it with their breath?

They should be penalized, in the unlikely event it ever happened, for not using their glove or hand 😃

[Velho]

I think we're burying the lede here. A lawful declaration that "breathing on is touching" in high school would seem to have larger ramifications than baseball.

[maven]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

I think we're burying the lede here. A lawful declaration that "breathing on is touching" in high school would seem to have larger ramifications than baseball.

That's right. Ask the ball for consent.