Pitched Ball Lodges in Bat

[johnnyg08]

So there's this picture circulating around the Internet and I thought it would make for a good rules discussion. 

A decision is absolutely required in this scenario. But what would you do? 

Using the rules, how would you handle this if it occurred in your game tomorrow? 

And yes, I know this is a college kid in a college game...but let's look past that piece and thing about:

NFHS

NCAA

OBR

Using the rules...what would you do if this happens in your game tomorrow?

[ousafe]

Foul ball. Contacted bat second time while batter still in box. All codes. 😄😄

[Rich Ives]

Batted ball. Treat it as such.

When the bat is dropped and the ball is in or goes into foul territory before 1st or 3rd. it's a foul ball (struck foreign object in foul territory). 

If it's dropped and stays fair it's a lodged ball - apply appropriate rule. 

[MadMax]

“Coach, I did ask you at the plate meeting whether all your players are properly and legally equipped, yes?”

[maven]

Illegal bat. 

[noumpere]

Do over

[ArchAngel72]

Well down at my level  (LL)  I am going to go with 6.06 d

6.06

A Batter is out for illegal actions when

d. the batter enters the batter's box with one or both feet entirely on the ground with an illegal bat (See bat specs rule 1.10) or is discovered having used an illegal bat prior to the next player entering the batter's box. The ball is dead. Runners must return if they advanced on the play.

 

Heh that right there is why I check bats before the game.

I have taken several bats this year out of the game prior to it starting already due to cracks and damage and wrong certs on them. 

 

[Velho]

8 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Well down at my level  (LL)  I am going to go with 6.06 d

6.06

A Batter is out for illegal actions when

d. the batter enters the batter's box with one or both feet entirely on the ground with an illegal bat (See bat specs rule 1.10) or is discovered having used an illegal bat prior to the next player entering the batter's box. The ball is dead. Runners must return if they advanced on the play.

 

Heh that right there is why I check bats before the game.

I have taken several bats this year out of the game prior to it starting already due to cracks and damage and wrong certs on them. 

I can follow this but (I'm not arguing with you) what's your response to the coach's comeback that this is one of the bats you inspected and signed off on?

[ArchAngel72]

26 minutes ago, Velho said:

I can follow this but (I'm not arguing with you) what's your response to the coach's comeback that this is one of the bats you inspected and signed off on?

I really truly doubt at my level that would ever happen. As it is LL 

But I do actually run my hand squeezing said bat to look for softy spots if I feel one its cracked and then I toss the bat out.  So I do not expect that to happen in one of my games but should it happen.

I would ultimately stick with the rule.  

Must have broken with the prior at bat and the player ignored it.

I have heard the sound of the ball coming off the bat be REALLY odd and seen the PU ask to inspect the bat after a hit and have observed bats be tossed then due to cracking. Also seen them check ok too. 

Believe me I know I am being a bit of a hardass on this one because if a player shatters or breaks a wood bat and there is no obvious tampering to have happened its like nothing happened play on as you will.

but meh that's the rule book I was given.. If LL sees to it they amend it to include a broken bat rule for non wood bats  that is more lenient then ok I will use that rule.  Matter of fact I am now going to go scour the book looking for something because the only thing I could find was that 6.06d shrug.

[Rich Ives]

4 hours ago, maven said:

Illegal bat. 

Based on what?

[Tborze]

5 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Based on what?

Well, there’s a baseball stuck in it 😉

[Replacematt]

If I were to microanalyze it, here's what I have:

1. The moment the ball touches the bat, it becomes a batted ball and is no longer a pitched ball.

2. Shortly (microseconds) later, the ball is now a lodged ball.

3. Thus, the status of the ball depends on if the ball was lodged over fair or foul territory.
     a. If over foul territory, the ball is foul.
     b. If over fair, we have a batted ball lodged--two bases.

In practice, I'm leaning towards viewing this as foul in all cases. It would be a hard sell if the bat hit the ball clearly over fair territory.

[Replacematt]

9 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I really truly doubt at my level that would ever happen. As it is LL 

But I do actually run my hand squeezing said bat to look for softy spots if I feel one its cracked and then I toss the bat out.  So I do not expect that to happen in one of my games but should it happen.

I would ultimately stick with the rule.  

Must have broken with the prior at bat and the player ignored it.

I have heard the sound of the ball coming off the bat be REALLY odd and seen the PU ask to inspect the bat after a hit and have observed bats be tossed then due to cracking. Also seen them check ok too. 

Believe me I know I am being a bit of a hardass on this one because if a player shatters or breaks a wood bat and there is no obvious tampering to have happened its like nothing happened play on as you will.

but meh that's the rule book I was given.. If LL sees to it they amend it to include a broken bat rule for non wood bats  that is more lenient then ok I will use that rule.  Matter of fact I am now going to go scour the book looking for something because the only thing I could find was that 6.06d shrug.

I don't think you can justify this ruling. 

[JonnyCat]

10 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Well down at my level  (LL)  I am going to go with 6.06 d

6.06

A Batter is out for illegal actions when

d. the batter enters the batter's box with one or both feet entirely on the ground with an illegal bat (See bat specs rule 1.10) or is discovered having used an illegal bat prior to the next player entering the batter's box. The ball is dead. Runners must return if they advanced on the play.

 

Heh that right there is why I check bats before the game.

I have taken several bats this year out of the game prior to it starting already due to cracks and damage and wrong certs on them. 

 

Agree with Matt. The bat is not illegal. It was probably cracked or broken, but it is not considered an illegal bat. 

Read the definition of an illegal bat in the LL rule-book under 2.00. It has to have been altered or does not meet LL specs, i.e. length/weight, or not a USABat standard.

Cracked, dented, or broken bats are just removed from play, no penalty.

Also agree with Matt. I think the foul call is the best option here.

[Richvee]

22 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Batted ball. Treat it as such.

When the bat is dropped and the ball is in or goes into foul territory before 1st or 3rd. it's a foul ball (struck foreign object in foul territory). 

If it's dropped and stays fair it's a lodged ball - apply appropriate rule. 

And if he doesn’t drop the bat?  

[Richvee]

23 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

I’m with Matt here. It’s lodged the moment it sticks in the bat. I cant tell if first lodged fair or foul, but I can sure sell a foul ball a lot easier than “a double”. 
 

Additionally we do not have an illegal bat. It cracked/ dented during play. 
 

[maven]

7 hours ago, Richvee said:

Additionally we do not have an illegal bat. It cracked/ dented during play. 

Non-broken bats do not allow a ball to lodge in the course of ordinary play.

But I'd probably go with a foul ball. No way I'm allowing the offense to benefit from that.

[ArchAngel72]

Rule 2.0 Definition of Terms

An Illegal Bat IS a bat that has been altered or a bat that is not approved for play because it does not meet specification's with regard to length, weight, barrel diameter, labeling, or performance standard for the division in which it was used. 

PENALTY  see Rule 6.06(d)

 

And there it is its an illegal bat due to not maintaining a performance standard for that division.

 

You cannot be serious if you do not think that bat was failed before the batter used it in his at bat. 

OR if it was OK when he started the at bat it certainly failed during his at bat fouling balls off and etc.  At that point one would think that the Batter knew he broke his bat, probably the catcher and the PU may have heard the difference in the sound of balls hitting the bat. 

These guys test bats all the time and they know when a bat starts to fail.  I am willing to bet a college level player is going to know that also. HECK a 12 U player would know the feel and sound difference I am sure

 

[Tborze]

Dead ball strike 

[JonnyCat]

3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Rule 2.0 Definition of Terms

An Illegal Bat IS a bat that has been altered or a bat that is not approved for play because it does not meet specification's with regard to length, weight, barrel diameter, labeling, or performance standard for the division in which it was used. 

PENALTY  see Rule 6.06(d)

 

And there it is its an illegal bat due to not maintaining a performance standard for that division.

You're misinterpreting the rule, and that is not the AR from LL. The performance standard is one that is set by USABaseball or BBCOR or whomever, and certified by the manufacturer. That bolded part covers if the batter was using for instance, a BPF bat, or something other than a USABaseball, or BBCOR (in some divisions of LL). (I'm using LL as an example, because I believe that is what you're referencing.)

Read the instructor comments in the RIM under the definition of an illegal bat. It says:

"This rule defines an illegal bat for the purpose of Rule 6.06(d). As a result, a bat that is, for instance, cracked or damaged because of normal use, would not be considered illegal and could not result in the batter being called out for using it, but the bat still must be removed from play because it could present an unsafe condition."

A cracked, broken, or dented bat from normal use is not an illegal bat, period. You simply remove it from the game, and move on. You're going to have a hard time proving the batter knew the bat was cracked when stepping in the box. Even if he did, there's no penalty other than removing the bat from play.

[ArchAngel72]

@JonnyCat  What is the next word after altered that you made Red?

 

OR

 

 Also you pulled something from the RIM  I shall go out to my car and grab the latest one I have. I do not have it on me and am currently going by the APP that LL provides the most updated rules on.

 

By Definition and By rule in that manual.  I also previously mentioned why the difference between a composite bat and a wooden bat.  Apparently you have found in the RIM where they have determined that they comment what you quoted.

 

This is of course changing my mind on what I found to be their written rules.  THANK YOU to LL for not being clear again on your rule set. 

What year by chance is your RIM?

 

[JonnyCat]

43 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

What year by chance is your RIM?

A bats specifications doesn't have anything to do with the condition of the bat in this circumstance. A bat that meets all of the manufacturers specifications as approved by LL, makes it a legal bat, no matter the condition. In order for a bat to be illegal, it must have been altered in some way by an unauthorized 3rd party, such a someone rolling or shaving it, etc. A bat that is cracked or broken, but still otherwise meets LL specifications, is not considered altered or illegal. It's disallowed for safety reasons, not because it's illegal.

Not meeting specifications simply means it doesn't meet length or weight or barrel size. Performance standard means the bats performance rating at the time of manufacturing, and the subsequent labeling it's issued such as USABat, or BBCOR. You can't use BPF bats anymore in LL because those don't meet LL specifications with regards to performance standards when they were manufactured. That's what makes a BPF bat illegal in LL.

My copy of the RIM is from 2019.

[Rich Ives]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:55 AM, Tborze said:

Well, there’s a baseball stuck in it 😉

How does that make it illegal?

[Mudisfun]

In my game? I'm going with a foul ball, unless there is something I see which makes me believe this was an altered bat. For all I know, the last pitch the bat hit caused internal damage and made the bat fail. I have no way of knowing if this bat was in use by the last batter, or not at all in the game. I would love to hear the argument a coach tries to make that this is a fair batted ball which now is lodged and deserves an award... I would think it deserves 2 strikes!

 I'm also going to the mound and shake the pitchers hand to make sure he is not bionic 🙂

 

[ArchAngel72]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

A bats specifications doesn't have anything to do with the condition of the bat in this circumstance. A bat that meets all of the manufacturers specifications as approved by LL, makes it a legal bat, no matter the condition. In order for a bat to be illegal, it must have been altered in some way by an unauthorized 3rd party, such a someone rolling or shaving it, etc. A bat that is cracked or broken, but still otherwise meets LL specifications, is not considered altered or illegal. It's disallowed for safety reasons, not because it's illegal.

Not meeting specifications simply means it doesn't meet length or weight or barrel size. Performance standard means the bats performance rating at the time of manufacturing, and the subsequent labeling it's issued such as USABat, or BBCOR. You can't use BPF bats anymore in LL because those don't meet LL specifications with regards to performance standards when they were manufactured. That's what makes a BPF bat illegal in LL.

My copy of the RIM is from 2019.

I would argue that a cracked bat does not meet LL specs

illegal bat now No based on your point out what is in that 2019 RIM

However 

let me add a twist.  You inspected that bat and had it removed from the game due to finding it cracked and the 3rd batter up comes to the plate and what happened in the OP happens.

Do you rule it a cracked bat or call him/her out because they disobeyed you and used a piece of equipment you had ruled out of the game?