Power Production Dates?

[Cavalier1948]

Does anyone know when Riddell began and ended CP production? I saw a pic of Bruce Froemming from ‘93 wearing a Power. Got me thinking 

[MadMax]

11 hours ago, Cavalier1948 said:

Got me thinking

Got you thinking about... ? Where to go looking for a “lost inventory” of them from a strip mall sporting goods store that has been in foreclosure for 20 years? 

We’ll have to involve @Razzer in this answer, since the story involves the Wilson Gold, and the patent filed by Wilson to “protect” their stake on the Velcro tabs-as-anchors method on baseball chest protectors. The emphasis was on baseball, because this filed patent' and the subsequent Cease-&-Desist letter was enough to knock Riddell and All-American out of the baseball market, and relegate Douglas and Schutt to stick with their existing models, for fear of having their football gear sales dividends affected. All five companies are, or were, football companies, and football equipment is far more lucrative than baseball equipment. 

The patent expired in 2018(?, 19?) so this all went down in approximately 1998/9. 

All-American folded (not because of this directly). Riddell threw all their resources into football. As mentioned, Douglas and Schutt continued with their own designs that didn’t involve Velcro tabs (to Schutt’s detriment, right @wolfe_man?) The Clinton years saw a great deal of production being shifted to China, and you can see the effect on the quality of gear – Douglas is still made in the USA, and as such, the plastic carapace plates can be denser and the end unit can be more contoured and form fitting. By contrast, the Wilson Golds and Platinums have less dense plastic parts, still rely solely on high-loft (thick) low-weight upholstery foam, and are shipped flat... all to minimize weight and volume-in-container and maximize quantities-per-container when shipped overseas. 

Champion is guilty of the same thing. There are reports of their carapace plates being far too thin and brittle and prone to cracking. It’s because they’re wholly produced in China. The reason we’re not outraged at a Champion’s failure is due to “expectations of perception” – a Champion CP, which is virtually an updated knock-off of a Gold, costs around $75 and doesn’t have the MLB logo on it. The Gold, however, still fetches $150 – $210 (Wilson’s own site!!!), and it has The-Logo-That-Makes-It-All-Official on it... so it better work, dammit! 

See why I get all animated on this topic? 

So, back to the Riddell Power... we don’t need Riddell to make any more Powers. We need Riddell to sell/release us the planform so we (some entrepreneur in our group) can produce it in an updated, more optimized manner. 

Oh, while I’m on the subject... there is a none-too-insignificant difference between the Wilson CPs and the new All-Star Cobalt. Why’s the Cobalt so good, despite being produced in China as well? The Cobalt carapace plates are comprised of HDPE – High Density PolyEthylene. It’s stronger, more flexible and has less mass, unit-to-unit, than ABS – Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene. ABS is cheaper and more available, especially when obtained and used in mass quantities... such as in an entire range of products all cast in the same production runs. 

If I’m going to spend $200 on a CP, I want one that is designed and produced more so to protect me better – lighter, more conforming, advanced material performance, etc. – than one that is near-entirely produced to protect its makers’ profit margins. 

[wolfe_man]

51 minutes ago, MadMax said:

 

Don't get me started on Schutt's Velcro quality!  That CP could be so much better with a few tweaks, but so can almost all of them.  Thicker plastic here, better harness there, remove wings here, add better gap protection there...

Not Power-related, but you mentioned the new AS Cobalt. The Cobalt needs several fixes in order to move my Gold out of the #1 spot.  I'm probably going to sell mine, reasoning that if I have to do so many fixes to a $180 CP, then I may as well stay with my Gold which only needs a thinner pad to be perfect for me. 

Yes, the HDPE is nice - but you have to change the location of the strap in order to achieve a better fit, the shoulders are off somehow - I can't quite find what it is that I don't like, but I don't like how they fit me (saw others mentioning this on FB too).  They sit too high up even at the largest setting, reminds me of the Schutt shoulders issue.  Then, the extension has a tendency to "wing" out and there's nothing to hold it tightly to your body because the strap design is on the middle of the plate above the extension.  These may seem little things to some, but they are annoying things that cost me time and money to fix.  I should not have to do these fixes on a $180 CP.  

I'm honestly very disappointed with the new Cobalt CP.  I know all the fan boys are singing their praises, but I don't understand how they can do so well with the mask (awesome looks and wicked light) and then put out a CP with so many oversights as a follow-up...

Also, as some have pointed out that another part of the Cobalt line - the shin guards - don't even match the CP or mask (shiny black vs matte).  I'm already hearing guys say they won't stand up to upper-level pitching either.  This is not a problem for me as I had no intention of leaving my F3 shins regardless, but again disappointing to hear about brand new shins at that price point.  I'm hearing now that they're not meant to be used at upper-levels; they're built to be more for low profile lower-level stuff - but then why charge upper-level prices and roll it out with a CP and mask that's meant for the top-levels? 

I must say, I am very appreciative and supportive of All Star and what they are trying to do, but just disappointed this wasn't the fix-all I hoped it would be.  I've bought a couple of their masks and the CP and I intend to get a skully soon.  I am not against what they're doing, but I wish that their research team had found a few more flaws and fixed them before they gave the green light and moved the design into production.  I don't want anyone to think that I'm tearing them down, but maybe I expected too much after all the hype.

Schutt/Adams with a better attachment system and a couple of tweaks is pretty close to perfect. It truly is the best hot-weather CP in existence and probably in my personal top 3 all-time that I have personally used, but that Velcro is terrible. I'd honesty prefer rivets over that cheap Velcro... ugh.

The Gold fits me perfect and I never fear any level of pitching, it's truly bulletproof - but it can be hot.  I don't mind the heat so much as I sweat regardless of the temperature, but that 1" thick foam is just too much.  I'm trying to avoid looking so... large.  I'm big enough (46-48 jacket, XL shirts, 230 lbs) and I don't need to look like Andy Katzenmoyer (insert age reference here - pic below for the younger guys) while calling pitches!

I really like the Douglas also - and I have some suggestions on it also that no one wants to hear.

As of today, my top 3 in no specific order:

1. Gold
2. Adams HDX XV (Schutt)
3. Douglas with mods (gap protection and t-hooks)

To pull all this back to where the OP started, the Power by all I've ever heard is the single-most comfortable and protective CP ever built.  I'm told that the Carlucci is right up there too. Unfortunately, I have never worn either of these - or even seen/touched one in person - so I cannot personally attest to it, but I have no doubts what they say is true. 

 

[Razzer]

On 12/7/2020 at 12:32 AM, Cavalier1948 said:

Does anyone know when Riddell began and ended CP production? I saw a pic of Bruce Froemming from ‘93 wearing a Power. Got me thinking 

My power was made in 1993 is the same in the photo 

Same size too

[BLWizzRanger]

Be careful not to remove that sticker. You will void the warranty...

[Rock Bottom]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:25 AM, wolfe_man said:

 

I really like the Douglas also - and I have some suggestions on it also that no one wants to hear.

As of today, my top 3 in no specific order:

1. Gold
2. Adams HDX XV (Schutt)
3. Douglas with mods (gap protection and t-hooks)

To pull all this back to where the OP started, the Power by all I've ever heard is the single-most comfortable and protective CP ever built.  I'm told that the Carlucci is right up there too. Unfortunately, I have never worn either of these - or even seen/touched one in person - so I cannot personally attest to it, but I have no doubts what they say is true. 

 

 

I've worn the HDX-XV for about 225 games, and the All-Star CPU4000 for about 70, and I have to say I LOVE, LOVE the CPU4000 - so much so I just bought a second one from Ump Attire 20 minutes ago to make sure I had one as a back-up, as I know they are close-out.  An INCREDIBLE deal for the $110 I got it for.  I liked the HDX-XV, but I like the 4000 way more.  If anyone is looking I'd give that a strong look before you can't find them anymore.  That being said I'd love to try a Power out.  How do they compare to the current Douglas?

[Razzer]

I have a Power and Carlucci and it is hard to compare them against each other, both are incredible and protective. I also have a Douglas which compare more like the Gold.

 

[wolfe_man]

6 hours ago, Rock Bottom said:

That being said I'd love to try a Power out.  How do they compare to the current Douglas?

I don't think you are able to compare anything today to a Carlucci or Power.  They're in a league by themselves. 

The Power and Douglas do not resemble each other very much at all.  The Power is very similar to a Gold in appearance, but the fit and comfort is so much better.  

 

[Umpire43]

On 12/8/2020 at 4:41 PM, Razzer said:

My power was made in 1993 is the same in the photo 

Same size too

Man what a great looking power!

[BT_Blue]

18 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I don't think you are able to compare anything today to a Carlucci or Power.  They're in a league by themselves. 

And since the Carlucci was a bespoke item. It is tough to compare it to a mass produced item. I think the only chest protectors you MIGHT be able to compare it to would be the Force3 and the Cobalt. But that still doesn't compare right. 

[TChildsUMP]

My Riddell says it was made in 2004

[Marcus6]

17 hours ago, TChildsUMP said:

My Riddell says it was made in 2004

Ummmmmmmmmmmm.....that’s not right 

[tpatience]

1 hour ago, FranklinT said:

Ummmmmmmmmmmm.....that’s not right 

It’s one of the weirder powers I’ve seen. But it was confirmed by Riddell to be legit 

[BT_Blue]

1 hour ago, tpatience said:

It’s one of the weirder powers I’ve seen. But it was confirmed by Riddell to be legit 

Could be worse... could be *gasp* ORANGE!  

 

[Marcus6]

6 hours ago, tpatience said:

It’s one of the weirder powers I’ve seen. But it was confirmed by Riddell to be legit 

I recall seeing this Power posted on the forum before.  As someone who was actively umpiring in 2004, I can say Powers definitely were not available to buy.  Wasn’t the Joe West/Riddle patent infringement in the late 90s?

[BT_Blue]

1 hour ago, FranklinT said:

I recall seeing this Power posted on the forum before.  As someone who was actively umpiring in 2004, I can say Powers definitely were not available to buy.  Wasn’t the Joe West/Riddle patent infringement in the late 90s?

Wonder if it was a refurb or something like that?? If Riddell would touch up their old stuff, ala Douglas, until some (*cough* Wilson and Joe West) told them to knock that off too.

[Thunderheads]

Wait a minute .........

Isn't Champion now making their CP w/ the velcro?  I believe they are @JimKirk 

And in that same mindset, wasn't Power forced to stop because of the patent on the West Vest using velcro?  If so, why can't Riddell make the Power again?  

[GerryB]

Yes, in the late 90s Riddell was unavailable for sale. I was on the waiting list just in case Joe relented...

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

Isn't Champion now making their CP w/ the velcro?  I believe they are

1. The Patent expired. 
2. Little ol’ Champion Sports is not the financial threat or rival to Wilson that Riddell, All-American (at the time), and Douglas are/were. 

What can the WestVest trace its ancestry back to? Football shoulder pads. What did Riddell, All-American, Douglas, Schutt, and Wilson all make for decades? Football shoulder pads. Hundreds of thousands of them. What benefits can be gained by choosing one football shoulder pad company over another? Okay, sure, slight differences in design, or styling, or color... but really, when you’re a college or high school purchasing 100-200 sets of shoulder pads at a go, and trying to maintain them for a 5-10 year lifespan, what features will jump out that will make your equipment manager’s eyes go wide in delight? How about thru-slot velcro tabs, securing the padding, so you can more easily wash, repair, or replace padding sets separate from the carapace? 

Wilson wasn’t just protecting their baseball assets when they filed the patent and follow-on grievance. They were trying to optimize their football market share, which was potentially much, much more lucrative. 

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

And in that same mindset, wasn't Power forced to stop because of the patent on the West Vest using velcro?

Football’s where the money’s at. Riddell did not want to imperil their vast football empire over a few dozen CPs. The better business decision was to let Wilson have their “baseball stuff”. 

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

If so, why can't Riddell make the Power again?

With the patent expired, nothing is preventing Riddell from making the Power again. The question is, why should they, or why would they want to? You’d trot out a 25 year old planform, paying your staff to go through all the legal and certified steps to source materials and fabricators for it, produce it, ship and stock it, and market it into a market that you haven’t been a part of for 20 years? And, I might point out, is still dominated by the very same rival that drove you out of the baseball market 20 years ago? Not worth it! 

No, the more effective route to “bring Powers back” would be a grassroots, behind the curtain effort to acquire the Power planform from Riddell, modernize it with better parts (closures, Chicago screws instead of rivets, etc), infuse a few new features (adjustable width, anyone?), pair it with modern, advanced laminate padding, and then roll it out as the Second Coming, preferably under a name which is better linked to baseball. 

[GerryB]

To add to the football list, Donzis/Easton football pads became umpire pads just before the Riddell WV.

[MadMax]

On 1/26/2021 at 2:36 PM, GerryB said:

became umpire pads just before the Riddell WV.

Stop. You're misspeaking. The WestVest was first brought to Douglas. Douglas was, and always has been, a domestic equipment producer. Through some machinations between Joe West, Douglas, and the folks at Wilson, the planform was taken from Douglas to Wilson. It was there at Wilson that the patented velcro tabs were introduced and then... well... patented. As it was taken from Douglas to Wilson it became the Gold, and at that point, Riddell and All-American – both primarily football equipment manufacturers – made their versions. Riddell's was the venerable Power. Cece Carlucci was producing his own CP and shinguard sets, as was Dan Parsons (+POS). 

Now, you're likely correct that Donzis-Easton introduced a CP that was a derivative of their football pads (at that time), but Riddell never made a/the WestVest.  

[Marcus6]

19 hours ago, MadMax said:

Stop. You're misspeaking. The WestVest was first brought to Douglas. Douglas was, and always has been, a domestic equipment producer. Through some machinations between Joe West, Douglas, and the folks at Wilson, the planform was taken from Douglas to Wilson. It was there at Wilson that the patented velcro tabs were introduced and then... well... patented. As it was taken from Douglas to Wilson it became the Gold, and at that point, Riddell and All-American – both primarily football equipment manufacturers – made their versions. Riddell's was the venerable Power. Cece Carlucci was producing his own CP and shinguard sets, as was Dan Parsons (+POS). 

Now, you're likely correct that Donzis-Easton introduced a CP that was a derivative of their football pads (at that time), but Riddell never made a/the WestVest.  

Makes sense as the original Douglas West Vests used the Velcro plates (not the tabs used on the Platinum and Gold)

[Thunderheads]

3 minutes ago, FranklinT said:

Makes sense as the original Douglas West Vests used the Velcro plates (not the tabs used on the Platinum and Gold)

My God .....a modernized version of this CP would just be epic! (for me)  

[Rock Bottom]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

My God .....a modernized version of this CP would just be epic! (for me)  

I've never seen one, so I guess maybe that's it, but what does that, or the Power, have that the All-Star CPU4000  doesn't (setting the neck-opening issue for some aside), Cobalt, Schutt XXV-HDX (setting aside the hated velcro) or current Douglas doesn't?  I'm asking out of ignorance, not arguing the current CPs are better.

[Thunderheads]

1 hour ago, Rock Bottom said:

I've never seen one, so I guess maybe that's it, but what does that, or the Power, have that the All-Star CPU4000  doesn't (setting the neck-opening issue for some aside), Cobalt, Schutt XXV-HDX (setting aside the hated velcro) or current Douglas doesn't?  I'm asking out of ignorance, not arguing the current CPs are better.

It fits ME!  it's got nice sturdy plates, a nice neck opening, and adjustable breast plate (which makes it fit ANYONE).  It's pretty low profile, and not extremely hot.  Remember, equipment is very personal, or, at least it can be!