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Guest Jacob

Ball four wild pitch scores winning run...

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Guest Jacob

Situation: Two outs winning run on third, 3-1 count ti batter, ball four wild pitch is thrown. Batter clears box to allow runner to score winning run. Is batter still required to go touch for first under this situation? Could he be called out for abandonment for celebrating the win instead?

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BR is only required to advance if the bases are full:

 

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation
game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result
of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases
full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance

without liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare
the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third
has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first
base.

 

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Not sure the OP suggested that the bases were loaded.

What you have here is a live ball situation where a runner from third scored on a WP/BP.  Would it have mattered if it had been ball 3 and not ball four?  No.

I think entertaining a thought that you could call the batter out for abandonment is looking for a booger.

JMO

Mike, Las Vegas

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Guest Jacob

I asked the original question. The bases were not loaded. Only the runner on third with two outs. I understand in the situations of bases full with a walk, hbp, a base hit, or homerun the runners and batter need to advance to next base or all bases in the case of a homerun.

I just had never seen this exact situation. The pitcher threw a wild pitch on ball four, entitling the batter to first base, the runner from third came in to score, on the wild pitch, not by being forced. The batter vacated to avoid interference. The game ended with the runner and batter celebrating while other players joined them. Batter never went down to first base. Was curious if he was required to or not. 

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2 minutes ago, Guest Jacob said:

 the runners and batter need to advance to next base

Depends on the rules. In OBR only the batter-runner and R3 need to advance.

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19 minutes ago, Guest Jacob said:

I asked the original question. The bases were not loaded.

Then, per my original response, BR is not required to advance.  Even when he is, some (and I'll have to look for the specific reference) say to *direct* him to first and only get the out if he refuses.

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So, is this the definitive answer on this?  Just direct the batter to go to first after the celebration? 

What if the batter runner leaves the field, but the other coach protests while his players or the umpires are still on the field?

how would you handle the appeal and subsequent protest?

Nobody has any other interpretations or case logic to apply?

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1 hour ago, T_Thomas said:

 

So, is this the definitive answer on this?  Just direct the batter to go to first after the celebration? 

What if the batter runner leaves the field, but the other coach protests while his players or the umpires are still on the field?

how would you handle the appeal and subsequent protest?

Nobody has any other interpretations or case logic to apply?

The runner need not go to first at all under OBR.

 

I think, under FED, he does (but I say that without looking it up, so take it for what it is) -- so yes, he is out on upon a proper appeal and the game continues.

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Guest T_Thomas

 

34 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The runner need not go to first at all under OBR.

 

I think, under FED, he does (but I say that without looking it up, so take it for what it is) -- so yes, he is out on upon a proper appeal and the game continues.

Thanks. 

It's being debated on another forum, so any documentation or rules citations appreciated.

Taking the man off 3rd base simplifies the logic. 

So what happens if the first batter of the game takes Ball 4, high-fives all his teammates, rips his shirt off, and goes to the locker room for a beer shower?  Is he declared out?   When?

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2019 NFHS rule 8

SECTION 2 TOUCHING, OCCUPYING AND RETURNING TO A BASE

ART. 1 . . . An advancing runner shall touch first, second, third and then home plate in order, including awarded bases.

"A dead-ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too early...On the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpire(s) leave the field of play."

Rule 8-2-6j states, "If any situation arises which could lead to an appeal by the defense on the last play of the game, the appeal must be made while an umpire is still on the field of play."

8-2-9: "All awarded bases must be touched in their proper order."

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 9.1.1 Situation D: With two outs, R3 on third base and R1 on first base. B5 receives a fourth ball. An overthrow at third permits R3 to reach home. In advancing (a) R1 fails to touch second or (b) B5 goes to second base but fails to touch first base. RULING:  Upon appeal, the umpire will rule R1 out for failing to touch second base in (a) and B5 out for failing to touch first base in (b). The run by R3 will not count in either case. (8-2 PENALTY)

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Thanks, guys.

Senior Azul, your casebook play above makes it clear he can be out on appeal if he advances past the base without touching, but in the OP he never goes there at all.

Below is a summary of the suppositions on the other site. (Thanks to the other posters there for helping provide some of the references.)

Article 8 Penalty (quoted below) says a runner can be out on appeal for failure to touch either advancing or returning

  • 8.2
  • 1. an advancing runner must touch 1 2 3 H in order ...
  • 5. If a runner who misses any base ... desires to return to touch the base must do so immediately
  • Penalty: For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning) ... the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team  ... on the last play of the game an appeal can be made until the umpire(s) leave the field of play.

So in this case the batter / runner could be called out on appeal for not advancing to first. 

The question then becomes "When can you call him out?" 

 

Under appeal procedures 8.2.6.d.2

  • A runner may not return to touch a missed base if … he has left the field of play.

So he can be called out when he crosses the boundary to dead ball territory.

 

So - back to the OP ... 

  • IF the defensive team is quick enough to make an appeal before the umpires leave the field, the umpires should just direct the batter-runner to touch 1B. 
  • IF the batter-runner is already in the dugout at time of appeal, then 3rd Out, No Run, Play On.

Problem solved, right?.  

 

 

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3 hours ago, T_Thomas said:

So - back to the OP ... 

  • IF the defensive team is quick enough to make an appeal before the umpires leave the field, the umpires should just direct the batter-runner to touch 1B. 
  • IF the batter-runner is already in the dugout at time of appeal, then 3rd Out, No Run, Play On.

Problem solved, right?.  

 

 

 

That first part feels "icky" ...

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Mr. T_Thomas, you’re not an umpire, are you? Nearly everything in your post is wrong. Let’s start with your misinterpretation of the FED case play. In the original post the very first question you asked in some very ungrammatical English was “Is batter still required to go touch for first under this situation?”

Prior to my post no one had actually answered that. There were three other responders and the closest one to answering that question was Mr. noumpere who was guessing albeit it was a correct guess—and provided no actual rule citation to support the guess. I gave you actual proof that the batter-runner is required to go to first base in that case play. The batter-runner doesn’t have to go to first and miss it—he has no choice but to leave the box as soon as he receives ball four. I gave you rules that support the case play using proper citation format which you don’t seem to recognize. FED rules are separated by hyphens and case play citations are separated by decimal points.

It’s RULE 8 not article 8. And did you notice that all the text I provided was nearly identical to what you parroted back to us? If it sounds as if I am mildly perturbed, it’s because I am. If you had told us that you had already been given the correct rule references for the FED ruling from another site it would have saved me a lot of work and I could have been more helpful in getting you to what you wanted to know.

The term abandonment has a very precise meaning in all rule sets. It applies to the situation where any runner who has acquired first base then leaves the base path heading to his dugout or his defensive position. A batter-runner who gives up his effort to reach first base has deserted. By rule, a batter-runner cannot be out for abandonment before touching or passing first base. However, there may be instances where a batter-runner aborts an advance toward first base before touching or passing it. That’s what we call desertion.

I am afraid that Mr. noumpere has misled you concerning the umpire “directing” the batter-runner to go to first base. Here’s where that idea comes from—it’s in the 2016 BRD (section 33, p. 39): In an explanatory note from the author Carl Childress he writes—

“OBR does not provide a time frame for the advance:  Simply, you wait around until BR and R3 decide to touch the bases, when the game ends. Many umpires, myself included, would ‘remind’ the runners to advance.” It’s not an official policy because we as umpires are not supposed to appear as if we are helping one team over the other. But we would definitely like to avoid the sh*tstorm that will certainly follow if we call out the batter-runner and nullify the game-winning run so we might as quietly as possible “remind” the batter-runner to advance.

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Dang, Senor - who peed in your Wheaties?

I was trying my best to be appreciative and complimentary for all of your help.  I came over here to post because I read here frequently, and I wanted to get a more "expert" view than from the other site.  At the time I posed the questions, the guys on the other site hadn't yet offered up those rule cites.  I cut & pasted those references - excuse me for not verifying the syntax.

Oh, by-the-way, it was not me who posted that original question with the "very ungrammatical English" - you can chastise Guest Jacob for that transgression. I'm pretty sure that I never mentioned the term "abandonment" either.  Thank Jacob for that one too.  Oh, and maybe I am "misinterpreting"  2019 NFHS Case Book Play 9.1.1 Situation D (did I get that worded properly?), but in that quote it does not seem at all clear to me that it applies if the batter-runner never does go to first base. Maybe because it actually says "(b) B5 goes to second base but fails to touch first base." I don't know, please excuse my ignorance...

But Thanks.  I sincerely do appreciate you and the others for taking your time to help.

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5 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

 

 

“OBR does not provide a time frame for the advance:  Simply, you wait around until BR and R3 decide to touch the bases, when the game ends. Many umpires, myself included, would ‘remind’ the runners to advance.” It’s not an official policy because we as umpires are not supposed to appear as if we are helping one team over the other. But we would definitely like to avoid the sh*tstorm that will certainly follow if we call out the batter-runner and nullify the game-winning run so we might as quietly as possible “remind” the batter-runner to advance.

OBR says the runner is out if he REFUSES to advance. Not "fails" - "refuses".   Can't refuse unless you first remind him.

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6 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. T_Thomas, you’re not an umpire, are you? Nearly everything in your post is wrong. Let’s start with your misinterpretation of the FED case play. In the original post the very first question you asked in some very ungrammatical English was “Is batter still required to go touch for first under this situation?”

Prior to my post no one had actually answered that. There were three other responders and the closest one to answering that question was Mr. noumpere who was guessing albeit it was a correct guess—and provided no actual rule citation to support the guess. I gave you actual proof that the batter-runner is required to go to first base in that case play. The batter-runner doesn’t have to go to first and miss it—he has no choice but to leave the box as soon as he receives ball four. I gave you rules that support the case play using proper citation format which you don’t seem to recognize. FED rules are separated by hyphens and case play citations are separated by decimal points.

It’s RULE 8 not article 8. And did you notice that all the text I provided was nearly identical to what you parroted back to us? If it sounds as if I am mildly perturbed, it’s because I am. If you had told us that you had already been given the correct rule references for the FED ruling from another site it would have saved me a lot of work and I could have been more helpful in getting you to what you wanted to know.

The term abandonment has a very precise meaning in all rule sets. It applies to the situation where any runner who has acquired first base then leaves the base path heading to his dugout or his defensive position. A batter-runner who gives up his effort to reach first base has deserted. By rule, a batter-runner cannot be out for abandonment before touching or passing first base. However, there may be instances where a batter-runner aborts an advance toward first base before touching or passing it. That’s what we call desertion.

I am afraid that Mr. noumpere has misled you concerning the umpire “directing” the batter-runner to go to first base. Here’s where that idea comes from—it’s in the 2016 BRD (section 33, p. 39): In an explanatory note from the author Carl Childress he writes—

“OBR does not provide a time frame for the advance:  Simply, you wait around until BR and R3 decide to touch the bases, when the game ends. Many umpires, myself included, would ‘remind’ the runners to advance.” It’s not an official policy because we as umpires are not supposed to appear as if we are helping one team over the other. But we would definitely like to avoid the sh*tstorm that will certainly follow if we call out the batter-runner and nullify the game-winning run so we might as quietly as possible “remind” the batter-runner to advance.

Since this is not the usual dropped third strike or routine play on the infield  would the run count since it crossed before the appeal (this sentence is concerning the opening post)?  Asking for a friend.  I had a similar situation in a CIF SS semi final game a few years back when the game was in extra innings with bases loaded and 2 outs.  I was 3rd base umpire when the batter got a base hit up the middle and R2 made no attempt to touch 3rd, but instead went right  to the top of the dog pile.  Thankfully nobody from the opposing team was paying attention and I grabbed the other 3 umpires and made a beeline for the exit gate.  Where the heck is Maven at?

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2 hours ago, umpstu said:

Where the heck is Maven at?

Sheltering in place, of course.

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16 hours ago, umpstu said:

Since this is not the usual dropped third strike or routine play on the infield  would the run count since it crossed before the appeal

No, since the appeal (for the third out) is a force out or by BR before reaching first (depending on which play we are discussing).

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4 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

I took a year-long hiatus from this forum because I got sick of the ticky-tack snarking.

Came back today out of boredom...and this is what I find.

Bye-bye.

:wave::mad:

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5 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

I took a year-long hiatus from this forum because I got sick of the ticky-tack snarking.

Came back today out of boredom...and this is what I find.

Bye-bye.

The envelope's question was "What did my wife say when she came back from her 'shopping trip'?"

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