Tag & Missed base

[MT73]

Catcher tags R3 but drops the ball.

Runner then misses the plate.

Signal  safe or no call?

Edited June 22, 2019 by MT73
Addition

[Rich Ives]

Just now, MT73 said:

Catcher tags R3 but drops the ball.

Runner then misses the plate.

Safe or no call?

No call yet.

[Senor Azul]

The following is from the 2015 MLBUM (p. 26) based on OBR rule 5.09(b)(12) and its following comment:

“On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder miss the tag on the runner, it is preferable that the umpire make no signal on the play.”

And the 2018 MiLBUM (section 5.44, p. 60) says the same thing:

“On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder miss the tag on the runner, the umpire shall make no signal on the play. As outlined in the previous paragraph, the runner must then be tagged if he attempts to return to the plate; if he continues on his way to the bench, the defense may make an appeal.

“A runner is permitted to return to touch home plate when the ball is dead, as long as the runner has not entered the dugout and there are less than three outs and/or a following runner has not scored…

“If home plate is missed during a time play, the umpire should immediately rule on the time play even if the runner misses the plate. The defense is required to recognize that the plate has been missed. If the defense properly appeals, the umpire should then reverse his prior decision and cancel the run. Even if the runner has returned to touch the plate prior to the appeal, the defense’s appeal is sustained because no run may score after the third out is made.”

[Jimurray]

I think I would give a safe if the tag contacted the runner. 

[johnpatrick]

12 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I think I would give a safe if the tag contacted the runner. 

I agree.

[johnpatrick]

Checked with a AAA umpire.  He said no call would be the proper call at the professional level.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Jimurray, i know you are going to be shocked to learn that I actually agree with you on this one. I, too, would give a safe signal if the tag actually contacted the runner and then the ball was dropped. I realized at the time I was posting the ruling from the MiLBUM that it might confuse things so I am glad you posted your take on this question.

[Lou B]

If the runner misses the plate and the catcher misses the tag I'm not signalling anything.

If the runner misses the plate and the catcher drops the ball while attempting to make the tag I'm signalling Safe.

[Richvee]

I had the biggest coach blow up of my career on such a play. Catcher applied tag and dropped the ball about 4-5 feet up the 3BL. Runner slid but never reached plate. I signaled safe and verbalized “ no tag”. F2 picks up the ball and tags runner while he’s sitting on his rear end a foot in front of the plate. I bang the out. 

All hell breaks loose from the offensive coaches resulting in 2 EJ’s. “ you called him safe Blah blah blah”  

I think about this play often. I can’t see making no call when a tag is applied and the ball is dropped. I’m pretty sure if you go with no call here you’re going to hear it from the defense. Especially if the ball is wedged  under the runner or something where its not clearly visible and obvious the ball was dropped

Missed tag and missed plate I agree no call 

[agdz59]

41 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I had the biggest coach blow up of my career on such a play. Catcher applied tag and dropped the ball about 4-5 feet up the 3BL. Runner slid but never reached plate. I signaled safe and verbalized “ no tag”. F2 picks up the ball and tags runner while he’s sitting on his rear end a foot in front of the plate. I bang the out. 

All hell breaks loose from the offensive coaches resulting in 2 EJ’s. “ you called him safe Blah blah blah”  

I think about this play often. I can’t see making no call when a tag is applied and the ball is dropped. I’m pretty sure if you go with no call here you’re going to hear it from the defense. Especially if the ball is wedged  under the runner or something where its not clearly visible and obvious the ball was dropped

Missed tag and missed plate I agree no call 

How about a "Show me the ball!" or use the bobble indication to let everyone know the tag was not completed?

[Lou B]

I wouldn't have called the runner safe until he reached/passed (even if missed) home plate.

I would have verbalized  "missed tag" or "dropped ball" but the runner is not "safe" if he hasn't reached the base.

 

R1 stealing, throw is to the first base side and a little high. R1 slides early, as F6 swipes the tag on R1s shoulder the ball pops out.  R1s slide stops a foot of two short of the bag.  I call "dropped ball, no tag", F4 picks up the ball and dives and tags R1 as he is scrambling to try to reach second, "Out"!

[Richvee]

35 minutes ago, Lou B said:

I wouldn't have called the runner safe until he reached/passed (even if missed) home plate.

I would have verbalized  "missed tag" or "dropped ball" but the runner is not "safe" if he hasn't reached the base.

 

R1 stealing, throw is to the first base side and a little high. R1 slides early, as F6 swipes the tag on R1s shoulder the ball pops out.  R1s slide stops a foot of two short of the bag.  I call "dropped ball, no tag", F4 picks up the ball and dives and tags R1 as he is scrambling to try to reach second, "Out"!

So you’re saying verbal with no signal?  

No way I’m going with “ show me the ball “ when I know damn well it’s on he ground. Same with a bobble sign. It’s not bobbled, it’s on the ground.

R2 ground ball to F6. He swipes and misses R2 who’s on his way to third. Safe signal and verbal “ no tag”. 

[Kevin_K]

6 hours ago, Richvee said:

So you’re saying verbal with no signal?  

No way I’m going with “ show me the ball “ when I know damn well it’s on he ground. Same with a bobble sign. It’s not bobbled, it’s on the ground.

R2 ground ball to F6. He swipes and misses R2 who’s on his way to third. Safe signal and verbal “ no tag”. 

Perhaps a hand gesture pointing at the ball akin to the one U1 makes when F3 holds the bag while stretching for the throw?

Combined with a verbal you demonstrate that you see the circumstances of the situation while not putting either side at a disadvantage.

 

[noumpere]

Home plate is different from the other bases.  In the example at second, the runner knows that if he's not touching second, he's liable to be tagged out -- no matter what happened on the previous attempt to get him out.  So, while you should generally have a "one play, one call" philosophy, you can get away with a "safe" "out" call on separate attempts.

 

But, once the runner touches the plate (and is safe), then there's no need to keep touching the plate.  Here, don't call safe until the runner *is* safe.

[Minnz]

Keep it simple on this. Don't use too many words. I had this last year and I simple said, "No Tag" and pointed to the ball. In this case runner then came to touch home so I signaled safe. Otherwise if tag gets applied correctly I signal out.

[Mudisfun]

On 6/22/2019 at 6:48 PM, Richvee said:

I had the biggest coach blow up of my career on such a play. Catcher applied tag and dropped the ball about 4-5 feet up the 3BL. Runner slid but never reached plate. I signaled safe and verbalized “ no tag”. F2 picks up the ball and tags runner while he’s sitting on his rear end a foot in front of the plate. I bang the out. 

All hell breaks loose from the offensive coaches resulting in 2 EJ’s. “ you called him safe Blah blah blah”  

I think about this play often. I can’t see making no call when a tag is applied and the ball is dropped. I’m pretty sure if you go with no call here you’re going to hear it from the defense. Especially if the ball is wedged  under the runner or something where its not clearly visible and obvious the ball was dropped

Missed tag and missed plate I agree no call 

Your coaches were/are idiots.

4-5 feet up the line, you signaled safe... who cares if you said or they didn't hear 'no tag'... your 5 FEET away from home. How in the world can they think the runner was safe at home when the runner was no where near it, and who at the time of being tagged out had yet to still touch it?

Your EJ was not a mechanics issue. Nothing you did would have eliminated the result of their base running errors. 

Sometimes you just cannot fix stupid.

[grayhawk]

On 6/24/2019 at 8:44 AM, Minnz said:

Keep it simple on this. Don't use too many words. I had this last year and I simple said, "No Tag" and pointed to the ball. In this case runner then came to touch home so I signaled safe. Otherwise if tag gets applied correctly I signal out.

This, IMO, is the best solution for a situation where someone might interpret the tag attempt as an out.  No physical mechanic, but instead a verbal "no tag!" to ensure both the runner and the catcher know the tag attempt was unsuccessful.  If, however, it's obvious to everyone the tag was unsuccessful, then no mechanic and no verbal would be the best choice.

[Aging_Arbiter]

2 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

Sometimes you just cannot fix stupid.

SWMBO always reminds me that you can sedate it...........after I wake up