Umpire needed help

[beerguy55]

I'l start this with, this was a very inexperienced umpire...first season...quite likely less than ten games experience.

R2 (only runner) stealing and BU gets out of position, runner is between the ball and the ump when the throw from F2 gets to F5.

The first thing the BU does is look at the PU - PU says/does nothing, BU calls safe.    (I was on first base line outside fence, around infield/outfield border, and I could see the runner was out, and could see that the ump had no hope of seeing the tag)

Coach in first base dugout requests time, goes to BU and says something like "I think you may have not had the best angle on that, can you ask your partner for help?"  BU agrees, goes to partner, and in possibly the shortest conference I've ever seen the BU changes the call to out.   

So, just out of curiosity...

Do you want BU making an assertive safe call there, even if he truly didn't see anything - or immediately just going for help?   

I'm assuming the worst thing the BU could have done was look to PU before making the call - basically told anyone who was observing he couldn't see.  It was the first thing I saw watching in real time, and after the game the coach told me after the game he saw it too.

As the PU - if you see the BU look at you like that, are you leaving him to make his call, or helping immediately?

I think it the end everything happened appropriately, it just looked a little awkward, and the ump's initial actions basically invited the coach to question the call.

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

So, just out of curiosity...

Do you want BU making an assertive safe call there, even if he truly didn't see anything - or immediately just going for help?   

Make your call based on the information you have available.  Do NOT look at your partner and do NOT go looking for help.  It's your call, not PU's.

I'm assuming the worst thing the BU could have done was look to PU before making the call - basically told anyone who was observing he couldn't see.  It was the first thing I saw watching in real time, and after the game the coach told me after the game he saw it too.

See above.

As the PU - if you see the BU look at you like that, are you leaving him to make his call, or helping immediately?

Yes, I am leaving him to make his call.  Further, this is a judgment call, so unless BU is missing information such as the ball being dropped, then it's not appropriate to "get help."

I think it the end everything happened appropriately, it just looked a little awkward, and the ump's initial actions basically invited the coach to question the call.

 

[Lou B]

First, it's the BUs call to make let him/her make it.

The manager should have asked th BU if he needed help on the call, he should not have gone to the PU it wasn't his call.  If I'm the PU I'm telling the manager he's talking to the wrong ump!  I'm not giving my opinion to the BU unless he asks me for it.

[Rich Ives]

On 5/27/2019 at 7:41 PM, Lou B said:

 

The manager should have asked th BU if he needed help on the call,

Unless the OP was edited the manager DID go to the BU.  

[Lou B]

Not sure if the post was edited or if I read it wrong?

[beerguy55]

13 hours ago, Lou B said:

First, it's the BUs call to make let him/her make it.

The manager should have asked th BU if he needed help on the call, he should not have gone to the PU it wasn't his call.  If I'm the PU I'm telling the manager he's talking to the wrong ump!  I'm not giving my opinion to the BU unless he asks me for it.

 

Just now, Lou B said:

Not sure if the post was edited or if I read it wrong?

You read it wrong...it hasn't been edited.   

[Lou B]

Not the first time I've done that!

[noumpere]

Goog judgment comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgment.  

 

The newer umpire just got some experience. We've all been thete.

[yawetag]

I agree with @noumpere on this - it's an experience thing.

With that said, there are times that I'll make a glance to my partner before making a call. This is not one of them, and I'll typically do it quickly as the play develops. BUT I can see a newer umpire checking to make sure, especially if he's not 100% clear on mechanics and responsibilities.

In this situation, though, it seems to clearly be that he had no idea what the call was and was hoping PU would bail him out from the start.

[The Man in Blue]

15 hours ago, Lou B said:

Not sure if the post was edited or if I read it wrong?

Make that determination first, then ask us.  

[Rich Ives]

9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Make that determination first, then ask us.  

The edit indicator only gets shown if you check the "show edited" box so a determination usually cannot  be made.

 

[beerguy55]

56 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

The edit indicator only gets shown if you check the "show edited" box so a determination usually cannot  be made.

 

To be honest, reading the post, and in context, I would have had to edit it a lot - it would be more than a typo.   Considering that there's an entire paragraph about how the coach talked to the BU, suggested the BU had a bad angle, that the BU agreed to talk to his partner, and then the BU changed his call...none of that makes sense if you think the coach is talking to PU.  It frankly boggles my mind to how it could have been misread or misunderstood....more like, didn't really read, skimmed parts of it...read "coach goes to BU" but misread as "coach goes to PU" and then stopped reading to make the response.

I thought it showed it was edited regardless, and the edit indicator said what you edited...but I think your statement makes more sense.

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

The edit indicator only gets shown if you check the "show edited" box so a determination usually cannot  be made.

 

 

In that case, the edit cannot be overturned.

[Rich Ives]

28 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

In that case, the edit cannot be overturned.

?????????????

My post Monday at 11:41 has been edited 3 times. The last one erased the first two. The edits are gone. 

[The Man in Blue]

Sorry Rich ... I’m new and you are missing my warped sense of humor.  

[Umpire in Chief]

"The glance..."

I have used the glance before, you need the experience to learn how to do it as nonchalantly as possible. I've been busted by coaches in the past looking at my partner; its not a good feeling. 

But IMO when you learn when and how to glance it's just another tool in your arsenal AND your partner has to know how to be discrete too. 

But ultimately it is the calling umpire's call. 

[Rich Ives]

21 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Sorry Rich ... I’m new and you are missing my warped sense of humor.  

OK.

 

If you would use a facial  expression or body language face-t-o-face to indicate something then please use an emoji here to convey the same thought.  Thanks. 

[Aging_Arbiter]

<----  KING!

[MulletUmp]

I’ve never even known of a certain look you can make at your partner that says “pls help” 

But I also only have 3 career games as BU under my belt. 

You learn something new every day. 

[noumpere]

2 minutes ago, MulletUmp said:

I’ve never even known of a certain look you can make at your partner that says “pls help”

there isn't (or shouldn't be) -- at least during live playing action.

 

There is a "look" for "I have help if you want it" that can be used after playing action is over.

[yawetag]

"The glance" I referred to was making sure I wasn't sharing a call with my partner, typically when he's supposed to rotate to 3B and I didn't hear him tell me he was there.

[MulletUmp]

10 minutes ago, noumpere said:

There is a "look" for "I have help if you want it" that can be used after playing action is over.

I’ve never seen that either, but now I know what to do if I’m doing a game with a partner. 

[noumpere]

14 minutes ago, yawetag said:

"The glance" I referred to was making sure I wasn't sharing a call with my partner, typically when he's supposed to rotate to 3B and I didn't hear him tell me he was there.

Yep -- of a glance from him if you haven't heard him and have come over -- make sure there's an odd number of calls.  ;)

[Aging_Arbiter]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Yep -- of a glance from him if you haven't heard him and have come over -- make sure there's an odd number of calls. 

Odd number huh??   Kind of like Meatloaf said?   2 out of 3 ain't bad.

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

OK.

 

If you would use a facial  expression or body language face-t-o-face to indicate something then please use an emoji here to convey the same thought.  Thanks. 

I had a wink on the initial post.  

 

Damned umpires, can’t see anything!