Balk or No Balk

[rusnew2]

So tonight in a High School game I was watching the pitcher was pitching from the wind up. He would come set with his throwing hand in his glove in front of him. He would start his motion by slightly stepping back with his free foot as he was adjusting his pivot foot to be parallel with the pitching rubber he would separate his hands and would bring his throwing hand down to his side and would "shake" his gloved hand in front of him (to get an idea of what this shake looked like shake your hand like you are trying to "adjust" your wrist watch into a more comfortable position). then once his pivot foot was in the place where he wanted it to be and as he was raising his leg to kick for his pitch delivery he would bring his hands back together and raise them up behind his head and would then separate them again as part of his "forward" motion delivery. 

The Offensive teams coach was calling for a balk ruling on this but it was never called. My question is, can a pitcher from the wind up separate his hands like that an put his throwing arm back to his side as and then reach back into his glove "part of his motion"? When this happened the ball remained in his glove until the second time he pulled his hand out of the glove.

According to NFHS Rules From the wind up position,

• Before delivering the pitch, he will bring both hands together in front of his body. Once brought together, the pitcher may not separate his hands except to do one of three things:
  • Deliver the pitch to the batter,
  • Step and throw to an occupied base to pick off a batter, or
  • Properly disengage the rubber by stepping backward off the rubber with the pivot foot.
• If the pitcher separates his hands other than for these three reasons, it is a balk.

From what I can tell this "should" be a balk but the rule does not specifically call this out as happening "once he has started his motion"

 

What is the ruling on this?

[Thunderheads]

How is this a balk in the first place?  You have stated he's in a 'wind up' position, and you also mention no runners.

[Richvee]

7 hours ago, rusnew2 said:

According to NFHS Rules From the wind up position,

• Before delivering the pitch, he will bring both hands together in front of his body. Once brought together, the pitcher may not separate his hands except to do one of three things:
  • Deliver the pitch to the batter,
  • Step and throw to an occupied base to pick off a batter, or
  • Properly disengage the rubber by stepping backward off the rubber with the pivot foot.
• If the pitcher separates his hands other than for these three reasons, it is a balk.

These are not the rules for a wind up. They are the rules for the set position. 

[rusnew2]

To address both of you,
Richvee:

You are correct, however the only difference between these rules and the wind up rules is he is not allowed to throw to a base without first disengaging the rubber. Other than that they are fairly identical. It was late and I grabbed and clipped the wrong heading. 
Because I know that once a pitcher in the wind up puts his hands together in front of his body, he is considered to be "set" and from this point on he must either deliver his pitch or break contact of the pitching rubber with his pivot foot. For instance, once he is in this position. If the pitcher removes his throwing hand from his glove and places it back at his side then that is a balk if it is done before breaking contact with the rubber.

 

Thunderheads:
I did mention he was in the wind up,
However, I did not mention whether there were runners or not. I guess I should have mentioned that bases were loaded. However, how does runners matter or pertain to the question of whether it is a balk or not? If a pitcher balks with runners on base then they each advance one base, if a pitcher balk's with no runners on base he charged a ball for the balk. So no offense I do not see how that is truly relevant to the question.

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, rusnew2 said:

To address both of you,
Richvee:

You are correct, however the only difference between these rules and the wind up rules is he is not allowed to throw to a base without first disengaging the rubber. Other than that they are fairly identical. It was late and I grabbed and clipped the wrong heading. 
Because I know that once a pitcher in the wind up puts his hands together in front of his body, he is considered to be "set" and from this point on he must either deliver his pitch or break contact of the pitching rubber with his pivot foot. For instance, once he is in this position. If the pitcher removes his throwing hand from his glove and places it back at his side then that is a balk if it is done before breaking contact with the rubber.

 

Thunderheads:
I did mention he was in the wind up,
However, I did not mention whether there were runners or not. I guess I should have mentioned that bases were loaded. However, how does runners matter or pertain to the question of whether it is a balk or not? If a pitcher balks with runners on base then they each advance one base, if a pitcher balk's with no runners on base he charged a ball for the balk. So no offense I do not see how that is truly relevant to the question.

No offense taken.  However, .... your question was: balk or not?   You can't balk without runners, ....that was my only point and why I asked

[noumpere]

Once the pitcher starts his motion he can do almost anything he wants with his hands, as long as the motion is continuous, and there aren't more than two "pumps."  No balk in the OP.

 

(But the motion wouldn't seem to be very effecient, at least to me.)

[maven]

I agree that, provided F1's motion is continuous, we don't care about glove shaking, foot resetting (no more than 1 step), etc.

The only part of it that sounds fishy is this: "When this happened the ball remained in his glove until the second time he pulled his hand out of the glove." That sounds like poor pitching technique (no opportunity to adjust grip), but I don't think it's illegal: we allow tapping the ball in the glove (bringing hands back together) as part of the windup motion.

[rusnew2]

I was under the impression that once a pitchers motion had started that he could not remove his hand from the ball or the ball from the glove except as part of theThe actual delivery of the pitch. This is why I thought that the Offensive coach had a legitimate gripe. 

The way his motion looked, it was almost akin to coming double set except that he stayed in motion once he started. he would start facing the batter (in the windup fashion) with his hand at his side while he took the sign from the catcher. Then would bring his hands together in front of him and come "set". Then would start his windup motion, stepping "slightly" back with his free foot, as he was stepping back is when he would separate his hands, His throwing hand would go to his side (without the ball in it) as he made his pivot foot adjustment. Then as he was starting to bring his free foot around and into his leg kick he would put his hands back together as if he was coming "set" from the stretch and his leg would go up into his kick and he would complete his delivery. Like I said, the only thing that made it odd was that once he broke the original "set" position he never stopped making it all one motion. Like I said above, is the only reason I thought the Offensive coach had a reason for complaint.

[noumpere]

28 minutes ago, rusnew2 said:

I was under the impression that once a pitchers motion had started that he could not remove his hand from the ball or the ball from the glove except as part of theThe actual delivery of the pitch. This is why I thought that the Offensive coach had a legitimate gripe. 

The way his motion looked, it was almost akin to coming double set except that he stayed in motion once he started. he would start facing the batter (in the windup fashion) with his hand at his side while he took the sign from the catcher. Then would bring his hands together in front of him and come "set". Then would start his windup motion, stepping "slightly" back with his free foot, as he was stepping back is when he would separate his hands, His throwing hand would go to his side (without the ball in it) as he made his pivot foot adjustment. Then as he was starting to bring his free foot around and into his leg kick he would put his hands back together as if he was coming "set" from the stretch and his leg would go up into his kick and he would complete his delivery. Like I said, the only thing that made it odd was that once he broke the original "set" position he never stopped making it all one motion. Like I said above, is the only reason I thought the Offensive coach had a reason for complaint.

It's once a pitcher has come set, or joined the hands that he can't do it -- except as part of his motion, which this was.

 

If both hands were at his side, and then both were moved at the same time to join, this is (by rule) a balk in FED.  How strictly it's called depends on the area.

 

There are pitchers who start with the hands together, swing both back as part of the step bak and then swing both to the front and have them meet as part of the lift to the balance point.  But, I've only seen this with the ball staying in the pitching hand.

[rusnew2]

Fair enough,  you learn something new everyday. I would have given him a balk based on how I interpreted the rule based on not supposing to remove the throwing hand from the ball until the "actual delivery" is made which meant to me that the throwing hand was to remain on the ball consistently until it actually left the pitchers had as part of the actual throw to the plate. Good to know and thank you for your answer and explanation. 

[kylehutson]

Sounds to me like the offense needs to get their signals straight so they can steal home.

[Senor Azul]

Perhaps the following FED case book play will be helpful. It actually defines the terms pump and rotation that Mr. noumpere alluded to earlier.

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 6.1.2 Situation B:  What is meant by a pump or rotation? RULING:  A pump or rotation is a movement of the arms, by a pitcher when in the windup position, immediately prior to delivering a pitch to the batter. The pump is an alternate downward and upward motion of the arms generally terminated by placing both hands together. A rotation is a circular movement of the pitching arm immediately prior to delivery to the batter during the windup position. The rules limit a pitcher to not more than two pumps or rotations when using the windup position.

[rusnew2]

that actually does explain it better, Thank you Senor.

[Phu Bai]

 Isn't it somewhat a judgement call  ..a balk as I have always interpreted it is a deliberate move by the pitcher to fool or disorient a hitter...
  If the pitcher uses the same motion on each pitch..I can't understand a balk being called...especially using a wind-up.
  Now how about those Eephus pitches?

 

[Thunderheads]

2 minutes ago, Phu Bai said:

 Isn't it somewhat a judgement call  ..a balk as I have always interpreted it is a deliberate move by the pitcher to fool or disorient a hitter...
  If the pitcher uses the same motion on each pitch..I can't understand a balk being called...especially using a wind-up.
  Now how about those Eephus pitches?

 

AN ILLEGAL MOVE BY A PITCHER ...........     there, .........fixed  

[Phu Bai]

That's fairly vague!

 

[Thunderheads]

Just now, Phu Bai said:

That's fairly vague!

 

what is vague?

[WilsonFlyer]

34 minutes ago, Phu Bai said:

 Isn't it somewhat a judgement call  ..a balk as I have always interpreted it is a deliberate move by the pitcher to fool or disorient a hitter...
  If the pitcher uses the same motion on each pitch..I can't understand a balk being called...especially using a wind-up.
  Now how about those Eephus pitches?

 

Runner(s). There's your problem.

[rusnew2]

Phu Bai,

I agree with you mostly on the some of it being a judgement call ie... if a pitcher uses the same motion for all pitches etc... but I also believe that just because a pitcher uses the same "illegal motion" on all pitches does not give them the ability to claim it's just part of their motion. Some moves inherently make fooling the batter/runners easier and skirt the line (sometimes on the wrong side of it) and that does not excuse them from committing a wrongful act just because they do it every pitch. Since asking this question I have also been scouring you tube to look at different wind up styles of pitchers and while I have seen some that will separate their hands at the beginning of their wind up usually they did not bring them fully back together again during their motion. Also most of the pitchers that did this seem to be long ago, I was not finding any current pitchers that do this. In fact most modern pitchers that pitch from the windup now keep their hand and ball in the glove completely until they are ready to make their break as part of their actual "toward the plate" motion. 

Another question to compound the issue and makes me wonder if this still should not have been called a balk was, when he did separate the first time he leaves the ball in the glove and pulls his throwing hand out of the glove without the ball only to retrieve the ball when he brings his hands together the 2nd time during his motion, (this is also why I mentioned above that it was akin to hem coming double set except that his motion never stops once he has taken that first step backwards with his free foot). Isn't there some rule that states a pitcher that once they come set can not take their throwing hand from the glove "empty handed" unless they break contact with the rubber? I know that from what has been said that once they start their motion they can do a number of things but I thought there was a rule that said exactly that, that a pitcher can not take their hand out of the glove without the ball once they have come set?

I wish I had been able to get video of the kid doing it. Unfortunately, he was called for a balk (of a different manner, and when he was called for it he went off on the umpire and was subsequently ejected). When he was called for the balk, he was on the rubber, in the windup position. Had come set and then removed his throwing hand to wipe his palm on his pants like he was wiping the sweat off of it. But when he pulled his hand out He did not break contact with the rubber first, or move either foot. So that was an obvious balk and the right call.

[rusnew2]

I may try to mimic his motion for you guys and get my daughter/wife to video me doing it so that you guys can get more of a visual of what I am talking about to see. It could be that what I am asking is just too hard to really picture without seeing it (but then again, isn't a lot of what we get asked about as umpires lol?)

[noumpere]

46 minutes ago, Phu Bai said:

 Isn't it somewhat a judgement call  ..a balk as I have always interpreted it is a deliberate move by the pitcher to fool or disorient a hitter...
  If the pitcher uses the same motion on each pitch..I can't understand a balk being called...especially using a wind-up.
  Now how about those Eephus pitches?

 

Yes, it's a judgment call.  And, you are using the wrong criteria to make that judgment.  First, the balk rules are designed to protect the runner, and have nothing to do with the hitter.  Second, pitchers try all sorts of legal moves to fool the runner.

[rusnew2]

10 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Yes, it's a judgment call.  And, you are using the wrong criteria to make that judgment.  First, the balk rules are designed to protect the runner, and have nothing to do with the hitter.  Second, pitchers try all sorts of legal moves to fool the runner.

If the balk has nothing to do with the batter, then why if a pitcher commits an illegal pitch with no runners on base can he be called for it and then be charged a ball in the count for the infraction?

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, rusnew2 said:

If the balk has nothing to do with the batter, then why if a pitcher commits an illegal pitch with no runners on base can he be called for it and then be charged a ball in the count for the infraction?

Because illegal pitches and balks are not the same thing (although they are related, and an illegal pitch with runners on base is a balk)

[rusnew2]

For sure, I know. and it only confuses it more when OBR rules say when a pitcher commits an illegal pitch with no runners on base it will be called a balk and a ball will be charged to the pitchers count. 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, rusnew2 said:

For sure, I know. and it only confuses it more when OBR rules say when a pitcher commits an illegal pitch with no runners on base it will be called a balk and a ball will be charged to the pitchers count. 

In OBR there are only two ILLEGAL PITCHES by definition, the quick pitch and a pitch with the pivot foot not in contact. That statement refers to those. Any other violation of the pitching rules with no runners is either a ball award or a" do not do that" except they do call a second step by either foot an illegal pitch.

[Guest Mikey]

This looks like an extreme example of what you're describing. I'd like to hear the debate. Legal or illegal?

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/SwRkb657oyo?feature=share