rusnew2

Yea, again. I did not have a rag or "marker" and normally a verbal queue to my partner or a signal would have sufficed, but I was alone as my partner called in just before the start of the game. So I used what I had on hand (or head rather).

Yea, that's what I thought also. Which is why I brought the question here to see if anyone else had ever encountered it. Keep in mind, that the ruling I made on the field was not questioned by either coach. Even the offending teams coach just took it and then started getting onto his first base coach for not paying attention to the runners (his words not mine " Your Job is to manage the Runner's, 3rd base coach job is to coach the batter!")

You are correct, the USSSA Girls Fastpitch Softball rules for Coach Pitch state, 10. A runner may not leave a base until the pitch: a. (Travel ball) leaves the pitcher’s hand/pitching machine. b. (Rec/All-Stars) reaches home plate. PENALTY: The ball is dead, a “no pitch” is declared, and the runner is declared out. A runner who leaves a base on a pitch is at liability to be put out, even on a non-batted ball. She may return to her original base (unless forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner), or she may attempt to advance to a subsequent base. However, if the ball is not batted, at the conclusion of a play involving a non-batted ball (i.e; an attempted pickoff), all outs stand, but any runners not put out must return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch. My thought is that if the Girls Softball rule states the penalty is a dead ball, but baseball does not is why I believe it to not be a dead ball. Since the rules come from the same organization.

I took this as meaning as when ending the previous play. As once TIME is called, yes the play is dead. However once the pitcher steps back into the circle with the ball and has been indicated to resume pitching then it is live again. Since the rule 8.16 states that the runner can not be off the bag until the ball either crosses the plate or is hit, it is not an infraction until the pitching coach actually pitches the ball. Just how I had interpreted the ruling. Is it me? or do the rules seem a little vague and ambiguous? I mean some rules are directly and cleaning defined, such as 8.08 The defensive player listed as pitcher shall not leave the pitching circle until the ball is hit. Rule 8.08 Penalty: The play continues. After the play has ended, the offensive team has the option of taking the result of the play or no-pitch. Rule 8.08 Additional Penalty: First Offense: Warning; Second Offense: Removal of player from the pitching position for the remainder of the game. This rule is cleanly defined and how to assess a penalty if the violation occurs. This is also part of why I felt I got that call right. As it did not state to call it dead and assess the out.

Normally, I would not throw anything. In this particular game, I was the sole umpire as my partner had called in sick just prior to game start time. I tossed my hat simply because with noise and ensuing pandemonium on the field, I wanted something to indicate that I had a violation of some sorts indicating as it happened and not to come as a surprise at the end of the play. Our fields in our town, the fences are on the smaller fields are very close to the action so parent noise gets LOUD. With two base coaches yelling, and usually no less than two "defensive" coaches yelling from their own dugout at times even yelling at the top of my lungs that I have TIME does not get heard. I just wanted a visual indication at the time of the infraction. It served it's purpose, at the end of the play both coaches from each side wanted to know why I had thrown my hat. Usually with my partner, we tend to be able to hear each other over din of the noise. However, without a partner I needed to indicate the infraction at the time of infraction as to not seem to "spring" it on the offensive coach at the end of the play.

So here is the question, USSSA Rules for 8U Coach Pitch (Rule 8.16 in USSSA Rule Book). States: "Runners shall not lead-off or steal bases. A runner is out for leaving the base before the ball is hit or reaches home plate." This rule does not make any mention of whether or not this is a dead ball situation, or how to hand the subsequent play once the pitch is made. Is this a dead ball out? Do you let the play progress and declare the runner out once the play has stopped? (keep in mind that in USSSA Coach Pitch the Umpire declares the ball dead after every play once the ball is on the infield in control of a defensive player and runners have stopped advancing). I actually had this call tonight. I had an 8U player that from everything I could tell knew exactly what he was doing. He was about 18 inches off of first base, whenever his 1st base coach would glance at him he would slide is foot back towards the bag to appear like he was on the bag and as soon as the coach put his attention back to the batter he would pull it back and be about 18 inches from 1st base. The pitching coach pitched the ball while the runner was off the base, I can see this all clearly as the home plate umpire. Anyway, once the ball was pitched and subsequently batted I tossed my hat towards first base as an indicator of the violation as I had nothing else to toss that direction. I allowed the play to continue and the batter/runner was thrown out at first. A runner from 3rd base had crossed home plate. This all occurred with one out already on the inning. My ruling on the field was, The runner at first base that was off the bag was out for being off the bag (2nd out of the inning). And then the batter/runner was out for the put out at 1st from the short stop to the first baseman. I ruled that being the 2nd out was the runner off base, and the third being the batter/runner at 1st that the run also did not count (same as like a double play). Did I get this right? Being that the USSSA rules do not state that it is a dead ball violation.

For sure, I know. and it only confuses it more when OBR rules say when a pitcher commits an illegal pitch with no runners on base it will be called a balk and a ball will be charged to the pitchers count.

If the balk has nothing to do with the batter, then why if a pitcher commits an illegal pitch with no runners on base can he be called for it and then be charged a ball in the count for the infraction?

I may try to mimic his motion for you guys and get my daughter/wife to video me doing it so that you guys can get more of a visual of what I am talking about to see. It could be that what I am asking is just too hard to really picture without seeing it (but then again, isn't a lot of what we get asked about as umpires lol?)

Phu Bai, I agree with you mostly on the some of it being a judgement call ie... if a pitcher uses the same motion for all pitches etc... but I also believe that just because a pitcher uses the same "illegal motion" on all pitches does not give them the ability to claim it's just part of their motion. Some moves inherently make fooling the batter/runners easier and skirt the line (sometimes on the wrong side of it) and that does not excuse them from committing a wrongful act just because they do it every pitch. Since asking this question I have also been scouring you tube to look at different wind up styles of pitchers and while I have seen some that will separate their hands at the beginning of their wind up usually they did not bring them fully back together again during their motion. Also most of the pitchers that did this seem to be long ago, I was not finding any current pitchers that do this. In fact most modern pitchers that pitch from the windup now keep their hand and ball in the glove completely until they are ready to make their break as part of their actual "toward the plate" motion. Another question to compound the issue and makes me wonder if this still should not have been called a balk was, when he did separate the first time he leaves the ball in the glove and pulls his throwing hand out of the glove without the ball only to retrieve the ball when he brings his hands together the 2nd time during his motion, (this is also why I mentioned above that it was akin to hem coming double set except that his motion never stops once he has taken that first step backwards with his free foot). Isn't there some rule that states a pitcher that once they come set can not take their throwing hand from the glove "empty handed" unless they break contact with the rubber? I know that from what has been said that once they start their motion they can do a number of things but I thought there was a rule that said exactly that, that a pitcher can not take their hand out of the glove without the ball once they have come set? I wish I had been able to get video of the kid doing it. Unfortunately, he was called for a balk (of a different manner, and when he was called for it he went off on the umpire and was subsequently ejected). When he was called for the balk, he was on the rubber, in the windup position. Had come set and then removed his throwing hand to wipe his palm on his pants like he was wiping the sweat off of it. But when he pulled his hand out He did not break contact with the rubber first, or move either foot. So that was an obvious balk and the right call.

that actually does explain it better, Thank you Senor.

Fair enough, you learn something new everyday. I would have given him a balk based on how I interpreted the rule based on not supposing to remove the throwing hand from the ball until the "actual delivery" is made which meant to me that the throwing hand was to remain on the ball consistently until it actually left the pitchers had as part of the actual throw to the plate. Good to know and thank you for your answer and explanation.

I was under the impression that once a pitchers motion had started that he could not remove his hand from the ball or the ball from the glove except as part of theThe actual delivery of the pitch. This is why I thought that the Offensive coach had a legitimate gripe. The way his motion looked, it was almost akin to coming double set except that he stayed in motion once he started. he would start facing the batter (in the windup fashion) with his hand at his side while he took the sign from the catcher. Then would bring his hands together in front of him and come "set". Then would start his windup motion, stepping "slightly" back with his free foot, as he was stepping back is when he would separate his hands, His throwing hand would go to his side (without the ball in it) as he made his pivot foot adjustment. Then as he was starting to bring his free foot around and into his leg kick he would put his hands back together as if he was coming "set" from the stretch and his leg would go up into his kick and he would complete his delivery. Like I said, the only thing that made it odd was that once he broke the original "set" position he never stopped making it all one motion. Like I said above, is the only reason I thought the Offensive coach had a reason for complaint.

To address both of you, Richvee: You are correct, however the only difference between these rules and the wind up rules is he is not allowed to throw to a base without first disengaging the rubber. Other than that they are fairly identical. It was late and I grabbed and clipped the wrong heading. Because I know that once a pitcher in the wind up puts his hands together in front of his body, he is considered to be "set" and from this point on he must either deliver his pitch or break contact of the pitching rubber with his pivot foot. For instance, once he is in this position. If the pitcher removes his throwing hand from his glove and places it back at his side then that is a balk if it is done before breaking contact with the rubber. Thunderheads: I did mention he was in the wind up, However, I did not mention whether there were runners or not. I guess I should have mentioned that bases were loaded. However, how does runners matter or pertain to the question of whether it is a balk or not? If a pitcher balks with runners on base then they each advance one base, if a pitcher balk's with no runners on base he charged a ball for the balk. So no offense I do not see how that is truly relevant to the question.