Wouda, shouda, couda..............

[Guest Uncle Doak]

Here is the play:  State tournament game, R1 and I'm in B.  Two strikes on batter who swings, ball hits his hands and goes foul ( batter is clearly in pain from contact ) PU calls  "Foul Ball".

I wait for all hell to break loose but there is nary a peep from coach of the team in the field ( they are losing ) I figure there is no sense is stirring things up if they are too ignorant to complain.

In the past I have volunteered the proper rules info. to another umpire to get things right so I have no problem helping out in these rare situations.  Was I right to keep this to myself or should

I have intervened?  I did tell PU about rule 7.1.2b ( Fed ) after the game.  Oddly enough this guy had been to a Pro school, was not picked for the minors.  Thanks.

[spiffdawg7]

It depends if he has misinterpreted a rule or if it was his judgement that the ball hit the bat. Unless you are sure he knew it hit his wrist and he was messing up the rule then I would wait to be asked. It is not the base umpires job to intervene on the judgement aspect or if it his the bat or the player.

[lawump]

23 minutes ago, spiffdawg7 said:

It depends if he has misinterpreted a rule or if it was his judgement that the ball hit the bat. Unless you are sure he knew it hit his wrist and he was messing up the rule then I would wait to be asked. It is not the base umpires job to intervene on the judgement aspect or if it his the bat or the player.

Good post spiffdawg7.  Guest Uncle: don't assume that your partner saw things the way that you did.  Your partner may have seen a foul ball.  If you are pretty damn sure that he is misapplying the rule (that is, there is seems to be no way that he could have judged that the ball was off the bat) then simply call time and huddle privately with him between the plate and mound.  Do NOT yell at him from across the infield.  Let HIM tell you the wrong rule before you tell him he is misapplying the rule.

[jms1425]

I agree. That's PU's call, and I rarely intervene unless I'm asked for help. The defense's coach should have asked PU to get together with you, and at that time you could have given PU info to inform his call so he could change it. I don't like the idea of walking up there unrequested, leading to another umpire's call being changed, when I wasn't asked to do so by that umpire. Opens up a LOT of cans of worms IMO.

[maven]

In the context of a "state tournament game," I'm not going to stop the game, go over to PU, and try to "volunteer proper rules info." This is PU's call all the way, and he can live or die with it.

If he stops the game to discuss, then I'll give him what I've got (rule and, if requested, judgment). Given the batter's pain behavior, this play calls itself.

Also, the rule you want is 7-2-1b (written with hyphens, not periods — case plays are cited with periods, rules with hyphens).

[dumbdumb]

That last sentence before the Thanks, is totally unnecessary. That is why some good people will not come on boards and eventually, over time, leads to the downfall of some (notice--some, not all), with the, what is the word, oh yes, hater syndrome.

And, just because this PU, may or may not want the whole world to know they went to umpire school and brags about it, doesn't mean we have to stoop to that level when reporting a call that they were involved with.

I will apologize right here and now (i am no (ain't no) saint either) if I just sounded unnecessarily mean with my IMHO.

That is not what is needed on this board or others.

Simply.

State the case, which as was very interesting and ask what others have done. Hopefully others will not talk down to you with the answer. There may be several answers given as to how others handled the situation, and then someone with great instincts and is very good and professional in handling situations, and writes concisely, like lawump (and others) can help guide us to the correct ruling and several ways this may be handled without putting gasoline on the fire so to speak.

 

[ScubaUmp]

he got hit while swinging?????????? how is that not the third strike?  PU called it Foul that's why, been there done that.

Still not your place to offer advice. Remember, unsolicited advice is a two stoke penalty USGA 8-1.....LOL

 

[kylehutson]

16 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

And, just because this PU, may or may not want the whole world to know they went to umpire school and brags about it, doesn't mean we have to stoop to that level when reporting a call that they were involved with.

For what it's worth, I took that sentence just to be "this guy really does know what he's doing - it's not a matter of him being in over his head".

And yes, you (the OP) were right to leave this alone unless asked.

[maineump]

3 hours ago, ScubaUmp said:

he got hit hit while swinging?????????? how is that not the third strike? 

Still not you place to offer advice. Remember, unsolicited advice is a two stoke penalty USGA 8-1.....LOL

 

PU called it foul - maybe he saw something the base guy didn't. I would wait to be asked by partner to offer what I saw, he is much closer than I am.

[beerguy55]

There are a few possibilities.

1. Plate Umpire saw it hit the bat - it is conceivable that hitting the bat very close to the hands could still result in the hands hurting.  It's also conceivable the ball hit the hands and the bat simultaneously.

2. Plate Umpire believes that "the hands are part of the bat" - highly doubtful at this level, but I've seen weirder things.

In scenario 1 - if the defensive team doesn't appeal the play...and/or the plate umpire does not ask for help (it's possible they could appeal AND he still opts to not ask for help), I would stay out of it...even if I'm 100% certain the ball hit the player's hands and only the player's hands....he's closer than I am so if he's 100% certain that's good enough for me.

In scenario 2 - I would only step in if it somehow became evident that he was misinterpreting the rule.

 

 

[VolUmp]

I've been on every side and angle of this situation, and I agree with the multitudes ... no argument from the defense, and possibility that PU heard or saw it hit the bat ... hold your tongue.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a rule in any code for what to do if the pitch hits the bat and hand at the exact same time.  Like the Baseball Gods don't recognize a "tie" on the runner and the ball in a force situation, the Baseball Gods evidently have determined that we must discern:

   1) Bat was hit .0001 seconds before the hand ... albeit the hand is bloody and swollen ... thus, foul ball ... or:

   2) Bat was hit .0001 second after the hand ... thus, a dead ball strike.

I've posted in other threads that if I'm PU, I go with my ear.  That's all I can do.  If I hear a "crack" (wood) or "ping" (metal) I go with the bat.

If I hear more of a "thud" I go with the hand.

I had a sitch where a batter, with two strikes, hit the pitch, with the back of his hand, and it rolled all the way to the pitcher.

Neither coach knew the rule despite my killing the play with a loud "TIME!" and two hands high in the air.  Pitcher threw to 1B.

The batter did know the rule ... and shook his hand as he retreated to the dugout.

I've sat in Association rule review meetings with umpires in their 20th year stating, "The ONLY time the hand is part of the bat is when the batter swings and hits the pitch."

Really?  So there are not just myths, but there are variations on myths?

Hilarious.

[Stk004]

14 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

I've been on every side and angle of this situation, and I agree with the multitudes ... no argument from the defense, and possibility that PU heard or saw it hit the bat ... hold your tongue.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a rule in any code for what to do if the pitch hits the bat and hand at the exact same time.  Like the Baseball Gods don't recognize a "tie" on the runner and the ball in a force situation, the Baseball Gods evidently have determined that we must discern:

   1) Bat was hit .0001 seconds before the hand ... albeit the hand is bloody and swollen ... thus, foul ball ... or:

   2) Bat was hit .0001 second after the hand ... thus, a dead ball strike.

I've posted in other threads that if I'm PU, I go with my ear.  That's all I can do.  If I hear a "crack" (wood) or "ping" (metal) I go with the bat.

If I hear more of a "thud" I go with the hand.

I had a sitch where a batter, with two strikes, hit the pitch, with the back of his hand, and it rolled all the way to the pitcher.

Neither coach knew the rule despite my killing the play with a loud "TIME!" and two hands high in the air.  Pitcher threw to 1B.

The batter did know the rule ... and shook his hand as he retreated to the dugout.

I've sat in Association rule review meetings with umpires in their 20th year stating, "The ONLY time the hand is part of the bat is when the batter swings and hits the pitch."

Really?  So there are not just myths, but there are variations on myths?

Hilarious.

Man last year I had a coach who told my partner and I that he was "part of the rules committee" and that he knew "for a fact" that the hands are part of the bat. Not only did I come in and end a long argument about it, my partner let him come out and discuss it the entire break between innings. 

[VolUmp]

7 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Man last year I had a coach who told my partner and I that he was "part of the rules committee" and that he knew "for a fact" that the hands are part of the bat. Not only did I come in and end a long argument about it, my partner let him come out and discuss it the entire break between innings. 

There's a reason that "The Hands Are Part Of The Bat" appears on multiple lists and the first entry of BASEBALL MYTHS.

[Stk004]

Just now, VolUmp said:

There's a reason that "The Hands Are Part Of The Bat" appears on multiple lists and the first entry of BASEBALL MYTHS.

I really wanted to say, "so when you bought that bat, did it come with a pair of hands?"

But I didn't. 

[udbrky]

I had a toughy this summer - I had the ball hitting the knob and being foul. Coach said it hit the stupid wrist band with 500 plays on it - of which the average player knows and understands 3. I went to my partner, he didn't have any info, and I stayed with a foul. The sound on the two would be fairly similar, and they're pretty close together.

[BT_Blue]

3 hours ago, Stk004 said:

I really wanted to say, "so when you bought that bat, did it come with a pair of hands?"

But I didn't. 

I've done it once. It was not received well.

[beerguy55]

On 1/14/2017 at 10:46 PM, Stk004 said:

I really wanted to say, "so when you bought that bat, did it come with a pair of hands?"

But I didn't. 

I said this to an umpire once, and he ejected me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - In the past five years I've run into no less than six umpires with five years or more experience who have told me that the hands are part of the bat.  The mythology is pervasive.

[Stan W.]

its always been my thought that I have never met an umpire who "wanted to be wrong" but I sure have met a few who "don't do enough to prevent it"

[Stk004]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

I said this to an umpire once, and he ejected me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - In the past five years I've run into no less than six umpires with five years or more experience who have told me that the hands are part of the bat.  The mythology is pervasive.

Totally worth it. 

[VolUmp]

You can't win with your parents with this method. Calmly explain the rule in an email to the parents or in a meeting after the game and make light of it.

in fact, have fun with them and send them the "40 Myths of Baseball."

When umpires don't even know the rule at the HS level, and it ranks as the #1 Baseball myth, it's hard to blame youth ball parents.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, VolUmp said:

You can't win with your parents with this method. Calmly explain the rule in an email to the parents or in a meeting after the game and make light of it.

in fact, have fun with them and send them the "40 Myths of Baseball."

When umpires don't even know the rule at the HS level, and it ranks as the #1 Baseball myth, it's hard to blame youth ball parents.

I don't disagree.  The funny part is, this exact myth is brought up in the parent meeting at the beginning of the year...and comes up at least twice a season.

My frustration more comes from the parents getting on the umpire's case.  It's bad enough when they're yelling at an umpire who has got it wrong - but when they're yelling at an umpire who got it right?!?!?!   Either way, my message, and the code of conduct they sign, is about just cheering the kids, and leaving the umpire discussions to the coach.  No parent that yelled at an umpire ever improved their team's situation, and often had the opposite effect.   But, it's usually a lot easier to shut a parent down when I can quickly prove them wrong.  Either way, I'm shutting it down now, not waiting until that evening.  Sometimes it can happen nicely and calmly, sometimes I just need to say "can it, now"...and sometimes I need to ridicule someone.

And it doesn't hurt to show the ump you're on their side.

 

It really does depend on the parent...some need a pat on the back, others need a kick in the ass.  There are those parents where I've had to explain to them "look, it's not like I can fine you, or get your arrested, or even kick you out of a ball park...but when you ask 'what are you gonna do about it' then I'll just ask you to remember that I can't make YOU do pushups, I can't make YOU run around the outfield, I can't bench YOU, and I can't kick YOU off the team."

[VolUmp]

11 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Either way, my message, and the code of conduct they sign, is about just cheering the kids, and leaving the umpire discussions to the coach.  

So they sign a code of conduct (great idea) but have no real consequence for violating it?

[beerguy55]

16 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

So they sign a code of conduct (great idea) but have no real consequence for violating it?

The consequence is on their kid...so, depending on the parent, they could view that as a consequence on themselves.  I know I would.

Even if I were to fine the parent, it's ultimately a consequence on the kid...especially if the parent refuses to pay it as I have no real recourse to collect it.   If I tell a parent they can't come to the ball park anymore, that is in itself a consequence...but I have no authority to enforce it...if they fail to comply the only consequence goes through the child.  "you're banned from the next five games - if I see you at the ball park I will bench your kid."

I have no authority to do ANYTHING to the parent without punishing their kid...or threatening it.

 

The only other idea I've had that has never been attempted by me or others in the organization, is a "good conduct deposit" - give me a $500 check at the beginning of the season that I won't deposit...if you're good I'll give it back to you...that might work, but I can see it requiring a helluva lot of documentation to support it.

[VolUmp]

18 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

"You're banned from the next game - if I see you at the ball park I will bench your kid."

This one should work. 

[BT_Blue]

On Mon Jan 16 2017 at 8:26 AM, Stan W. said:

its always been my thought that I have never met an umpire who "wanted to be wrong" but I sure have met a few who "don't do enough to prevent it"

Can we make this a bumper sticker?

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I said this to an umpire once, and he ejected me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - In the past five years I've run into no less than six umpires with five years or more experience who have told me that the hands are part of the bat.  The mythology is pervasive.

I should also note, that I lost count at the number of parents who claim it.  I really hate it when I have to shut my own parents up on this one , and I have said to them, while they're in the stands, so everyone can hear, "When you buy a bat it does not come with a pair of hands."