New Mask Choices

[grozzly]

your choice really depends on how you'll use your mask. How many games/week, pitcher's speed....

i bought  this one last year. Light, comfortable. i took a few pitches (foul tips) at +85mph, wearing glasses, and i didn't feel anything...

[GerryB]

I'm in Boston and most of the season the TW pads will be hard, but when you get hit they still feel/protect the same regardless of temperature. 

 

[gnhbua93]

12 hours ago, grozzly said:

your choice really depends on how you'll use your mask. How many games/week, pitcher's speed....

i bought  this one last year. Light, comfortable. i took a few pitches (foul tips) at +85mph, wearing glasses, and i didn't feel anything...

Remember the ball impact was soften by it being inside the catcher mitt and the mitt hitting the mask while the ball was inside.

[jms1425]

More good info, everyone. What a great forum this for this kind of discussion.

Thanks Stk004 and MPLSUMP for speaking to the weight of the v2. I’m still thinking about that mask. The v2 is listed at 28oz (1 ¾ lbs). If they can come out with v3 at about 20 oz I’ll buy it pronto!

The Wilson leather pads look really bulky and vision-impeding, so I’m glad grayhawk talked about the Wilson memory foam pads. I was leaning that way before I posted here, so I was hoping to get some feedback on that.

Can anyone (like Matt, Stk004, umpstu, or Tksjewelry) speak to the view you get with the Wilson leather pads?

I guess the cold / stiffness issue with the TWs can be addressed, but I’d rather not worry about it.

And JaxRolo – don’t be hatin’! That thing has served me well!    But, yeah – I gotta upgrade (hence the post.)

I love all the info on the pads, but what about the frames? I gather everyone considers the pads the most important part of the protection (and I don’t disagree), but can anyone speak to a couple things on the frames:

1)      Sturdiness / non-bending / ability to withstand impact

My Champro is pretty bent, and I don’t think it’s taken any really hard shots at the kind of velocity there is at the D-I level.

2)      Field of vision

The pics on the web make it look like the Champro’s “eye-slot” is a good bit wider than the others. How’s the view in the others?

3)      Finish durability

My Champro’s finish is starting to wear off and rust at some junctions where the bars meet.

 

Wow. I am going to be the most informed mask-buyer ever!  LOL

[Replacematt]

13 minutes ago, jms1425 said:

Can anyone (like Matt, Stk004, umpstu, or Tksjewelry) speak to the view you get with the Wilson leather pads?

If you have good plate mechanics, it's not an issue. Yeah, there's some loss of peripheral vision compared to my TWs, but I've never had an issue with that affecting anything except someone handing me a baseball.

[BT_Blue]

21 minutes ago, jms1425 said:

I love all the info on the pads, but what about the frames? I gather everyone considers the pads the most important part of the protection (and I don’t disagree), but can anyone speak to a couple things on the frames:

 

1)      Sturdiness / non-bending / ability to withstand impact

 

My Champro is pretty bent, and I don’t think it’s taken any really hard shots at the kind of velocity there is at the D-I level.

 

2)      Field of vision

 

The pics on the web make it look like the Champro’s “eye-slot” is a good bit wider than the others. How’s the view in the others?

 

3)      Finish durability

 

My Champro’s finish is starting to wear off and rust at some junctions where the bars meet.

 

 

 

Wow. I am going to be the most informed mask-buyer ever!  LOL

 

One of the great things about this page is the depth of knowledge across many things in our umpiring world. You can actually do a search and find many answers to the questions you asked above. But many of the questions can be answered I generalities.

#1) I believe Matt already posted regarding the strength, durability, and "bendy-ness" of some of the materials that are used. But basically you actually want the mask to flex, if not actually dent and bend from a hit. If it does not (the titanium has this problem) the force of the hit gets directed to the mask pads and then your face/neck/brain. By bending it actually is doing its job.

#2) from my experience, it seems to be that the vision slot on masks is virtually the same from mask to mask. With some very small exceptions (anyone remember the +POS/All Star composite resin mask).

#3) the finish on the mask is just that. A finish. For the most part,  it is just decorative. If you like your Champro mask and want to keep it. You could always send it to Tony at Maskitsports.com . For $35 plus shipping both ways he will bang out any dents, replace welds that need it, and powder coat your mask just about any color you want. And the nice thing about powder coating is that the color fuses with the material of the mask. Making the color part of the mask rather than just a coating.

Others can probably speak to some points better. But that has been my experience. 

[MadMax]

With respect and regards to my colleagues' input, my answer will have little to nothing to do with pads specifics, since professional baseball – which you, @jms1425, are nearly on-par with with D-I and D-II baseball – itself strongly advises changing mask pads once per year. This is another aspect of where a traditional mask (TM) has an advantage over hockey-style masks (HSMs), with the ability to completely change out the pads for a different construction, material or color on a whim. With this in mind, you can try and settle on any number of pads types (provided they are not the stock Diamond pads that shipped upon the "original" DFM-iX3... throw those away immediately).

The masks you've presented as options, bereft of their / any pads, are very much equitable. The market today bears five different mask frame materials – titanium, aluminum, hollow steel, solid steel, and magnesium alloy (which seems to have disappeared from active present use). Here's an entire discussion we had about the materials involved:

Between the Diamond DFM-UMP (latest iteration of the iX3) and the Wilson DynaLite Aluminum (should just call it the DynAlum), they'll have the same strength, same durability and same performance. Diamond went all in on aluminum masks, with the DFM-iX3 running at approx. $69 and the DFM-UMP-BL running at approx. $89. Why the difference for essentially the exact same mask frame? The pads. The original Diamond pads on the iX3 were atrociously pathetic. Downright dangerous. With the BL, you get pads that have actual volume to them. Otherwise, the mask itself is next-to-perfect – deep half-sphere profile, chisel-point chin guard and extended crown guard. Wilson has been late to the party in rolling out an aluminum mask, but I do give them credit on realizing that titanium is a dead-end road and giving aluminum a go... more than can be said of Nike and Rawlings. Wilson mask frames tend to be smaller / shallower of a profile, with their "new view" low profile nearly flat and wedge shaped. This DynAlum isn't as dramatic of a flattening as its steel and titanium cousins, but one will see a difference in vantage point between Wilson and Diamond.

Are the pads cross-interchangeable? Absolutely yes. Wilson just pushes the price point into the three digits (around $120) because they can... and they have to "recoup investment on the R&D of the new Memory Foam pads"... whatever that means. Must be corporation-speak.

The one complication at present, though, is that we cannot buy a DynAlum on its own, bare naked frame, like we can with a Diamond DFM-UMP. So, we're forced to buy one with pads and either take a hit in the wallet, or take a hit in the face and trust the ol' leather pillows.

When using an aluminum frame, keep in mind, it will not deform. It does have slightly more mass than titanium, and because of its metallic structure, will dampen a blow more so than the near-instantaneous transfer of energy that titanium exhibits. However, it has nothing on steel, which is still the cushiest of the metallic choices. The reason titanium is at the end of its useful employment in masks is a combination of the aforementioned trait, and the exuberant cost per unit. When that unit fails (bends / deforms), it is nearly impossible (i.e. uber-expensive) to bend it back out again. One significant shot *CRINK!* bent... it's done. A $250 paperweight. If aluminum takes that same shot, you'll feel it (depending on what pads you have), but the mask won't deform. In fact, it takes several accrued shots, of similar velocities and forces, to cause a failure. Granted, when that failure is about to occur, there are very little warnings, and when it does, there is no way at all to repair / restore the aluminum back to original integrity.

That's where good ol' steel shines. It can be bent back out with relatively minor effort, repaired on the cheap, and it's back to working order again. If the damage is beyond affordable repair, the cost of the mask itself is rather affordable too. A steel mask will deform drastically before it actually fails. As mentioned, its greater mass allows it to dampen energy, reducing the amount transferred to the pads and eventually to your face. And on that dampening note, here's where we introduce the Force3 Defender...

Not only is the Defender steel, but it drastically increases the dampening properties by infusing spring-and-rubber suspension assemblies. The bulk of the energy is captured by these structures before ever reaching the pads themselves.

...

Oh, and that Champro CM71-2 you've got? It'll work... once. Provided it has good pads on it, its hollow steel construction will capture all that energy when it caves in and is blown off your head. You'll be picking it up off the ground, a bit dazed and confused... wondering what you're going to do now that you've got a wrecked mask and 6 more innings to go. Eh, what's $45?

[Stk004]

I always look forward to responses from @MadMax . In terms of leather pads, they're my personal favorite and I wouldn't say it obstructs your vision. Maybe you'll see it a little more out of your peripheral vison, but the overall look is the same. The finish on some Wilson aluminums I had was really disappointing. Don't have that problem with titanium or black steel. 

[BT_Blue]

I like how Max dropped in the info for the Defender. Well done.

[Replacematt]

21 hours ago, MadMax said:

When using an aluminum frame, keep in mind, it will not deform. It does have slightly more mass than titanium, and because of its metallic structure, will dampen a blow more so than the near-instantaneous transfer of energy that titanium exhibits.

And this is why my aluminum with stock Wilson pads feels less concussive than my FM25TI with TWs.

[jms1425]

Everyone's responses are so very useful, but @MadMax - wow. Thanks for the time, effort and thought you put into that response and in the linked thread. Easily understandable, yet based in scientific principles and well-presented.

Based on MadMax's comments, it seems the aluminum offers a great compromise between steel and titanium in terms of "force diffusion", weight, and cost. So I think I have decided on the frame material - aluminum. But the Wilson, or the Diamond?

One thing I keep coming back to is "What do the MLB guys use?" I figure if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. I found the thread from 2012 when Fittske24 listed the guys in The Show and their mask. It seems the overwhelming choice is (was?) Wilson. However, MadMax's comments that the Diamond mask is "next-to-perfect" have me waffling.

So... final comments, anyone? Diamond or Wilson?

[BT_Blue]

My vote is for the Diamond. But I have also never used a Wilson mask

[kylejt]

Things have changed since 2012, and there are more choices, both in frames and pads.

I asked an MLB umpire why he chose certain pieces of gear, and he said it was because he got them for free. It struck me that he didn't put much thought into his protection.

Again, and I hate to keep repeating this, but FIT is quite important. Just because Joe West uses a certain piece of gear doesn't mean it will fit you properly.

I've got a Diamond, Wilson, Honig's and Schutt in my garage. The best fitting rig is my Honig's frame with Team Wendy pads. But my son likes the Wilson, with the Wilson wrap-around leather pads. Everyone is different. Every face is different. Do not go by what you see on TV. Hell, half those guys don't roll with throat protectors, which I find quite insane. ( I know it's heresy to some to even question what MLB umpires do, but in this case I don't care ).

I don't care for the silver, aluminum Diamond frame, that seems to be cast, instead of tubing. They don't give one millimeter, and all that energy goes right to the pads. I do like the hollow steel Diamonds, that seem to just like the hollow tube steel of many other brands.

The Wilson aluminum is another good choice.

 See which fits your face best, with the combination of pads that you like best. Oh, if you get a chance to try on a Champro magnesium, do so.

[clasonater]

JMS1425: I switched between a wilson TI and the force3 v1 for about a hundred plates this year.  A fair amount of those were 4 hour freaking marathons.  The way the mask sits (or is supposed to) the weight for me is a non issue.  I liked to compare it to the wilson steel frames that feel like a boat anchor hanging off your hat after three hours.  If you do go the F3 route, I would suggest purchasing the tan pads, because the black ones get steamy.  

[clasonater]

Oops, didnt see the last post that said wilson or diamond.

[gnhbua93]

9 hours ago, jms1425 said:

Everyone's responses are so very useful, but @MadMax - wow. Thanks for the time, effort and thought you put into that response and in the linked thread. Easily understandable, yet based in scientific principles and well-presented.

Based on MadMax's comments, it seems the aluminum offers a great compromise between steel and titanium in terms of "force diffusion", weight, and cost. So I think I have decided on the frame material - aluminum. But the Wilson, or the Diamond?

One thing I keep coming back to is "What do the MLB guys use?" I figure if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. I found the thread from 2012 when Fittske24 listed the guys in The Show and their mask. It seems the overwhelming choice is (was?) Wilson. However, MadMax's comments that the Diamond mask is "next-to-perfect" have me waffling.

So... final comments, anyone? Diamond or Wilson?

Remember that the MLB guys are under a contractual agreement with Wilson. That take 80% off the equation the statement of what the MLB guys use, if is good for them should be excellent for me.

[JimKirk]

21 hours ago, jms1425 said:

Everyone's responses are so very useful, but @MadMax - wow. Thanks for the time, effort and thought you put into that response and in the linked thread. Easily understandable, yet based in scientific principles and well-presented.

Based on MadMax's comments, it seems the aluminum offers a great compromise between steel and titanium in terms of "force diffusion", weight, and cost. So I think I have decided on the frame material - aluminum. But the Wilson, or the Diamond?

One thing I keep coming back to is "What do the MLB guys use?" I figure if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. I found the thread from 2012 when Fittske24 listed the guys in The Show and their mask. It seems the overwhelming choice is (was?) Wilson. However, MadMax's comments that the Diamond mask is "next-to-perfect" have me waffling.

So... final comments, anyone? Diamond or Wilson?

Anytime you are in a toss-up situation on any protective gear after weighing ALL options, the answer is simple...

...GO with the one that costs less!

[MadMax]

Or, you can take the route I find myself recently doing (and @JimKirk will love this) – get both, try both, and sell off to a fellow/junior umpire the one you chose out of.

In this case, get a Diamond DFM-iX3 frame and a set of TW pads. Get a simple harness. Then, get a Wilson DynAlum with their MemFoam pads... try them both, interchange them... get your ideal rig set up... and if you must, sell the other one, however it is rigged, to your fellow umpire or junior sidekick. I can guarantee he'll be getting a rig that is ten times better than what he has been using.

As @kylejt has mentioned, the Honig's K4 is a candidate, moreso for its design than its composition. It is a voluminous, deep, half-sphere design with big ear guards and a crown guard (just like the Diamond DFM-iX3 and your Champro CM71 you have now). I will state, though, that when rigged with TW pads and a visor, it is the heaviest of my four mask rigs. The difference is in the order of ounces, but it is the heaviest. Since it is my navy-trimmed mask, I use it only for navy-trimmed games, meaning I only wear it for little kid ball ( < 13U), 6-7 innings tops. If you do find interest in a design like this, but want something lighter, I would encourage you to seek out a Champro or +POS Magnesium alloy mask. I finally tried one on a few weeks ago, and hand-compared it to the Honig's K4. The two masks are nearly identical in dimensions, vary a little bit in style (the K4 crown guard is styled differently, and the bullring and wicket are more truly U-shaped than the squared-off bars of the Magnesium mask). The Magnesium mask, though, is shockingly light, very much did I have to keep tossing it around in my hand remarking about it.

In summary, I would advise you just to start buying and trying some out. It's not like you're buying garbage that you'll be unable to sell/pass on to someone else (such as all those heavy hubcap Rawlings PWMX and LWMX's littered throughout eBay).

[JimKirk]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

Or, you can take the route I find myself recently doing (and @JimKirk will love this) – get both, try both, and sell off to a fellow/junior umpire the one you chose out of.

In this case, get a Diamond DFM-iX3 frame and a set of TW pads. Get a simple harness. Then, get a Wilson DynAlum with their MemFoam pads... try them both, interchange them... get your ideal rig set up... and if you must, sell the other one, however it is rigged, to your fellow umpire or junior sidekick. I can guarantee he'll be getting a rig that is ten times better than what he has been using.

As @kylejt has mentioned, the Honig's K4 is a candidate, moreso for its design than its composition. It is a voluminous, deep, half-sphere design with big ear guards and a crown guard (just like the Diamond DFM-iX3 and your Champro CM71 you have now). I will state, though, that when rigged with TW pads and a visor, it is the heaviest of my four mask rigs. The difference is in the order of ounces, but it is the heaviest. Since it is my navy-trimmed mask, I use it only for navy-trimmed games, meaning I only wear it for little kid ball ( < 13U), 6-7 innings tops. If you do find interest in a design like this, but want something lighter, I would encourage you to seek out a Champro or +POS Magnesium alloy mask. I finally tried one on a few weeks ago, and hand-compared it to the Honig's K4. The two masks are nearly identical in dimensions, vary a little bit in style (the K4 crown guard is styled differently, and the bullring and wicket are more truly U-shaped than the squared-off bars of the Magnesium mask). The Magnesium mask, though, is shockingly light, very much did I have to keep tossing it around in my hand remarking about it.

In summary, I would advise you just to start buying and trying some out. It's not like you're buying garbage that you'll be unable to sell/pass on to someone else (such as all those heavy hubcap Rawlings PWMX and LWMX's littered throughout eBay).

Hey, that works, too! What @MadMax said. Forget what I said. "Why buy 1 when you can buy 2."

[Chris Hickman]

Tomorrow @JimKirk will be running the Jos A Bank/ Ump-Attire Sale... my 1 Wilson Ti Mask at regular price and get 2 more masks FREE!!!  Of coarse the new retail price on the Ti is $699!!!!  LOL

[BT_Blue]

4 hours ago, Chris Hickman said:

Tomorrow @JimKirk will be running the Jos A Bank/ Ump-Attire Sale... my 1 Wilson Ti Mask at regular price and get 2 more masks FREE!!!  Of coarse the new retail price on the Ti is $699!!!!  LOL

Well, since I am not interested in a Wilson TI. I volunteer to take the two free masks... Cause I'm such a nice guy and all..

[jms1425]

17 hours ago, MadMax said:

In this case, get a Diamond DFM-iX3 frame and a set of TW pads. Get a simple harness. Then, get a Wilson DynAlum with their MemFoam pads... try them both, interchange them... get your ideal rig set up... and if you must, sell the other one, however it is rigged, to your fellow umpire or junior sidekick. I can guarantee he'll be getting a rig that is ten times better than what he has been using.

...I would encourage you to seek out a Champro or +POS Magnesium alloy mask. I finally tried one on a few weeks ago, and hand-compared it to the Honig's K4. The two masks are nearly identical in dimensions, vary a little bit in style (the K4 crown guard is styled differently, and the bullring and wicket are more truly U-shaped than the squared-off bars of the Magnesium mask). The Magnesium mask, though, is shockingly light, very much did I have to keep tossing it around in my hand remarking about it....

I really like that first idea, and the Magnesium Champro has me intrigued. Is this the one you're talking about, @MadMax?

http://midwestump.blogspot.com/2009/05/magnesium-umpires-mask-from-official.html

 

Sounds like a great mask - how is the energy transfer quality of magnesium, on the titanium-aluminum-steel spectrum?

 

This is the only place I could find with it for sale:

http://www.steellockersports.com/Champro-Pro-Plus-Super-Lite-Umpire-Mask-p/cpro-cm58b.htm

It seems to be the same mask, though the model is CM-58 instead of FM-58 as in the review. I found it on Amazon and a couple sports sites, but out-of-stock.

[MadMax]

@jms1425, based on what I know of Materials Science, I'd place the Magnesium Alloy between Titanium and Aluminum. The alloys in it are going to determine its plastic deformation characteristics, but working against it is the low density of the alloy compared to the others. The one benefit is that it won't deform like the Titanium, thus, you won't agonize over looking through bent bars after the first big whack.

Midwest Ump reviewed the wrong mask and used the wrong photos.

Here's another (possible) outlet selling the Champro Magnesium mask...
http://www.fifthregionofficials.com/champro-pro-plus-super-lite-umpire-mask-leather-biofresh-pads/

I hope you don't buy the last one... I was going to use some Christmas money and snatch one up to put it through its paces.

[JohnMcSherry]

On 11/14/2016 at 7:27 PM, MadMax said:

Or, you can take the route I find myself recently doing (and @JimKirk will love this) – get both, try both, and sell off to a fellow/junior umpire the one you chose out of.

In this case, get a Diamond DFM-iX3 frame and a set of TW pads. Get a simple harness. Then, get a Wilson DynAlum with their MemFoam pads... try them both, interchange them... get your ideal rig set up... and if you must, sell the other one, however it is rigged, to your fellow umpire or junior sidekick. I can guarantee he'll be getting a rig that is ten times better than what he has been using.

As @kylejt has mentioned, the Honig's K4 is a candidate, moreso for its design than its composition. It is a voluminous, deep, half-sphere design with big ear guards and a crown guard (just like the Diamond DFM-iX3 and your Champro CM71 you have now). I will state, though, that when rigged with TW pads and a visor, it is the heaviest of my four mask rigs. The difference is in the order of ounces, but it is the heaviest. Since it is my navy-trimmed mask, I use it only for navy-trimmed games, meaning I only wear it for little kid ball ( < 13U), 6-7 innings tops. If you do find interest in a design like this, but want something lighter, I would encourage you to seek out a Champro or +POS Magnesium alloy mask. I finally tried one on a few weeks ago, and hand-compared it to the Honig's K4. The two masks are nearly identical in dimensions, vary a little bit in style (the K4 crown guard is styled differently, and the bullring and wicket are more truly U-shaped than the squared-off bars of the Magnesium mask). The Magnesium mask, though, is shockingly light, very much did I have to keep tossing it around in my hand remarking about it.

In summary, I would advise you just to start buying and trying some out. It's not like you're buying garbage that you'll be unable to sell/pass on to someone else (such as all those heavy hubcap Rawlings PWMX and LWMX's littered throughout eBay).

Curious, are the Rawlings PWMX pads all leather?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rawlings-PWMX-Umpire-Catcher-Face-Mask-/371793288285?hash=item56909b5c5d:g:PAUAAOSwCGVYB5Qn

[BT_Blue]

Sure looks like it.