Batter/Runner and Pitcher Collide

[johnnyg08]

What do you have in this play (if anything), under OBR, FED, or NCAA?  I put the video in "Rules" because feedback on all three rule codes will be helpful for all of the umpires who work those codes. 

 

[noumpere]

Int, BR out.  Maybe MC under FED and NCAA.

[JSam21]

INT in all codes.... and most likely MC in FED and NCAA

[Umpirechick1]

Definitely INT. I'd have MC based on the lowered and thrown shoulder. 

[Thunderheads]

yeah, INT, BR OUT, and he's done for MC (FED)...almost a no brainer

[Mudisfun]

That was a nice shoulder block.

You're out - take a shower. (FED/NCAA)

[Gfoley4]

What's the PU's mechanic there? Look like he does a fist pointed to the side then bangs the out. Wouldn't the proper mechanic be "TIME, That's Interference, (point at B/R), you're out?"

[Stk004]

6 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

What's the PU's mechanic there? Look like he does a fist pointed to the side then bangs the out. Wouldn't the proper mechanic be "TIME, That's Interference, (point at B/R), you're out?"

It could be him signaling foul ball (or that the ball was contacted over foul territory), but probably not. What it looks like to me is a sloppy obstruction mechanic, followed by declaring the BR out. I'm no mechanics guru but I believe you have the correct mechanic. I point when I say "that's interference" but that's just me nitpicking. 

[maven]

31 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

What's the PU's mechanic there? Look like he does a fist pointed to the side then bangs the out. Wouldn't the proper mechanic be "TIME, That's Interference, (point at B/R), you're out?"

I believe he's calling an out. Yes, it's sloppy. (I never say, "you're out," but rather, "he's out": I'm communicating my call to everyone, not merely or mainly to the person who is out. Also, that's what pro school teaches.)

The old FED "fist-out" for delayed dead ball (not just OBS) has been consigned to the scrap heap of history's dumb mechanics.

I think the ball became dead while still in flight, so I doubt that he was signaling foul.

[basejester]

17 minutes ago, maven said:

The old FED "fist-out" for delayed dead ball (not just OBS) has been consigned to the scrap heap of history's dumb mechanics.

I don't use it, because I was never taught it.  But what makes it dumb? 

[stkjock]

21 minutes ago, maven said:

The old FED "fist-out" for delayed dead ball (not just OBS) has been consigned to the scrap heap of history's dumb mechanics.

 

Is that with the arm straight out to the side like 1/2 of a T?

 

if so... I saw it used in a LL game this year a couple times

[kylehutson]

I think softball still uses fist-out for delayed dead ball? Maybe that's why it's still around?

[maven]

3 hours ago, basejester said:

I don't use it, because I was never taught it.  But what makes it dumb? 

Needless and looks goofy.

[ALStripes17]

I think softball still uses fist-out for delayed dead ball? Maybe that's why it's still around?

Alabama HS baseball still uses it...

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[jkumpire]

But isn't the old FED DDB signal done with the left hand, not the right?

 

https://www.nfhs.org/media/727151/baseball_official_signals.pdf

[johnnyg08]

To move the discussion forward, it's most likely some sort of DDB mechanic. 

Outside of mechanics, let's try and keep this focused on the play. 

So far under strict OBR we have an out for interference.  Seems like a pretty good consensus on that piece yes?

 

 

[Stk004]

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

To move the discussion forward, it's most likely some sort of DDB mechanic. 

Outside of mechanics, let's try and keep this focused on the play. 

So far under strict OBR we have an out for interference.  Seems like a pretty good consensus on that piece yes?

 

 

Definitely. 

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Agreed;

Out for interference under ALL codes. 

Ejection for MC in Fed.

In OBR, be prepared to see this batter get drilled on his next AB

[VolUmp]

This is far more STUPID or IGNORANT than MALICIOUS.  High school players still think if they avoid the pitcher in this play, they risk being called out of baseline.  That's 100% the fault of the coaches for not teaching the rule.

Because of the blindsiding of the pitcher in this video, I'm ejecting the batter in FED.

FED really should create another option called RECKLESS BASE RUNNING, where the player is not necessarily ejected, but warned and called out for interference.  Perhaps a warning issued to the team.

The verbiage for MC implies that there was intent to injure.  Hardly ever the case.  Usually his intent is to move someone out of the way.  If no one is hurt, I never call MC ... I call INT and instruct the player and coach that this was a dangerous play, albeit not malicious.

[Replacematt]

31 minutes ago, WildFlyer said:

This is far more STUPID or IGNORANT than MALICIOUS.  High school players still think if they avoid the pitcher in this play, they risk being called out of baseline.  That's 100% the fault of the coaches for not teaching the rule.

Because of the blindsiding of the pitcher in this video, I'm ejecting the batter in FED.

FED really should create another option called RECKLESS BASE RUNNING, where the player is not necessarily ejected, but warned and called out for interference.  Perhaps a warning issued to the team.

The verbiage for MC implies that there was intent to injure.  Hardly ever the case.  Usually his intent is to move someone out of the way.  If no one is hurt, I never call MC ... I call INT and instruct the player and coach that this was a dangerous play, albeit not malicious.

You're contradicting yourself.

And moving someone out of the way can be grounds for MC in and of itself.

[VolUmp]

I'm absolutely not contradicting myself.

I don't think there was an intent to injure here, but the pitcher was blindsided, and that's not going to get the same benefit of the doubt as most plays would that I would simply call stupid, ignorant, or reckless.

[Replacematt]

42 minutes ago, WildFlyer said:

I'm absolutely not contradicting myself.

I don't think there was an intent to injure here, but the pitcher was blindsided, and that's not going to get the same benefit of the doubt as most plays would that I would simply call stupid, ignorant, or reckless.

Then what rule are you using to justify an ejection?

[VolUmp]

MC

I'd call this 20% MC  (He did hurt the pitcher even if accidentally)

40% RC

40% OC

If there were 0% MC, and it was all RC or OC, I would not want to eject.

The best example is when there is a slight collision and the runner puts up his forearms, he's usually doing it to protect himself ... not hit like a linebacker.  The Defensive Coach ALWAYS comes out screaming, "HE THREW HIS FOREARMS!!!"

No ... he didn't.  He raised them ... and there's a clear difference.

It's still stupid ... slide or avoid and there's never a problem ... but coming in standing up and raising your forearms to buffer a slight collision is not malicious with intent to harm.  It's not.  That's not debatable.  So please don't debate it.

If you call FED, you know how many rules are dumbed down because the board in Indianapolis thinks we're all too stupid to apply rules that are complicated at all ... so they end up making sweeping statements and rulings that aren't often clear or necessarily based on logic.

[johnnyg08]

Under that line of thinking a bigger player is at a disadvantage because something malicious may not hurt him.  On the other side of the coin, a bigger player could be penalized for MC for making legal contact w/ a smaller player.  Think of Shaq.  

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, WildFlyer said:

MC

I'd call this 20% MC  (He did hurt the pitcher even if accidentally)

40% RC

40% OC

 

That adds up to 100% MSU.