Disengaged Pick off throw goes Out of Play - Base runner award

[Guest guest-l]

Had the following situation come up in a Middle School playoff game yesterday (league follows FED rules - not that I feel that matters for this ruling)

R1 (Large lead) and R2,  Pitcher steps back and throws to 1B,  throw is low and F3 cannot handle it.  Ball bounces past F3 and ends up in Dead ball area.......

Runners were placed on 2nd and 3rd (1 base award) - 

If the pitcher had made a "engaged move" I would agree with the 1base award, but since he stepped back before throwing shouldn't the award be 2 bases? (R2 scores and R1 to 3B)

UMP quoted "1 from the mound 2 from the field", but stepping back makes this one 2 from the field in my view.....

 

am I right?

 

 

 

 

 

[maven]

If he legally disengaged, then the award is 2 bases.

I am seeing a lot of pitchers use a move where the pivot foot goes back while at the same time the free foot goes toward the base. This is a jump turn, not a legal disengagement, even though the pivot foot ends up behind the rubber. If both feet were moving simultaneously, it would count as a move from the rubber, and result in a 1 base award on an overthrow.

Perhaps that's what your umpire saw.

[kylehutson]

You are correct that once he steps completely backward off the pitching rubber with his pivot foot, he becomes an ordinary infielder, thus a two-base award.

That being said, it would have to be pretty obvious to me that he had completely disengaged before I gave it a two base award rather than one.

[scrounge]

Oy...you've got a guy who doesn't fully understand the rules. It happens - it's middle school after all. 80% of the officials you'll run into at that level are either new guys just learning or old guys who might as well be in their first year. And sometimes you just get the guy who was available, whether he's good or not.

If he indeed disengaged and it wasn't a jump stop, jab step, etc., he is an infielder and it should have been a two base award from time of throw.

[LMSANS]

You are right.  Once F1 legally disengaged (Pitcher steps back), he is like any infielder and the award for that throw going into DBT is 2 bases TOT.

[Guest]

TY for the replies

Just to be clear it was a full disengagement followed by a turn and throw.....

when questioned about stepping back first the Ump actually said it doesn't matter what he does he is the PITCHER so its 1 base from him no matter what....  

 

 

[scrounge]

TY for the replies

Just to be clear it was a full disengagement followed by a turn and throw.....

when questioned about stepping back first the Ump actually said it doesn't matter what he does he is the PITCHER so its 1 base from him no matter what....  

​Yep, you've got a guy perpetuating a myth...or creating one. Like earlier stated, it happens. Probably not worth dying for this hill. Hopefully, he'll get some additional training along the way.

[noumpere]

 

UMP quoted "1 from the mound 2 from the field", but stepping back makes this one 2 from the field in my view.....

 

​"1 from the RUBBER..."

 

Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably, but here, that causes confusion.

[maven]

 

when questioned about stepping back first the Ump actually said it doesn't matter what he does he is the PITCHER so its 1 base from him no matter what....  

 

​Ah, well, no.

"If the pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher’s plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder and if he makes a wild throw from that position, it shall be considered the same as a wild throw by any other infielder." OBR 5.07(e)/8.01(e)

 

[grayhawk]

Whenever I hear someone say, "one from the mound, two from the field," I am skeptical of their rules knowledge.  It's like they need a catchy phrase to help them remember how to apply such a simple rule.

[scrounge]

Whenever I hear someone say, "one from the mound, two from the field," I am skeptical of their rules knowledge.  It's like they need a catchy phrase to help them remember how to apply such a simple rule.

​Yep. I had a partner - who I knew was kind of a clown from seeing him in basketball but never worked with him in baseball - who told a coach on an overthrow that the rule was "base you're going to plus one". I imagine he thought the hands are part of the bat as well.

[Umpire in Chief]

This one always stirs up problems. From your description, it sounds like he missed it. 

[maineump]

The step back - and if he breaks his hands at the same time - is a 'pivot move' and gets one base.

If he clearly steps back and does not break his hands until the pivot foot is on the ground - then he becomes this 'infielder guy'.

Very rare to see the step then separate move, especially in JV and below.

[basejester]

I have a feeling that the same coach who argues for a one base award based on this move will argue the pitcher is disengaged when the pitcher feints a throw to first with the same footwork.

 

 

[Jimurray]

The step back - and if he breaks his hands at the same time - is a 'pivot move' and gets one base.

If he clearly steps back and does not break his hands until the pivot foot is on the ground - then he becomes this 'infielder guy'.

Very rare to see the step then separate move, especially in JV and below.

​If you are talking about a "snap throw" or feint the step back is a dissengage and is why we allow the feint. What is the pivot move? Of course in FED and NCAA the foot should land before the hands separate but common practice is to ignore the separation if everything happens quickly. 

[MadMax]

I have a feeling that the same coach who argues for a one base award based on this move will argue the pitcher is disengaged when the pitcher feints a throw to first with the same footwork.

 

 

I made a note of this here as to why youth-level coaches "teach" a disengaging step (or at least a semblance of one) first.

[Kevin_K]

If he legally disengaged, then the award is 2 bases.

I am seeing a lot of pitchers use a move where the pivot foot goes back while at the same time the free foot goes toward the base. This is a jump turn, not a legal disengagement, even though the pivot foot ends up behind the rubber. If both feet were moving simultaneously, it would count as a move from the rubber, and result in a 1 base award on an overthrow.

Perhaps that's what your umpire saw.

​@maven ......So when a pitcher does not throw in this situation would you consider it a balk?

[maineump]

​If you are talking about a "snap throw" or feint the step back is a dissengage and is why we allow the feint. What is the pivot move? Of course in FED and NCAA the foot should land before the hands separate but common practice is to ignore the separation if everything happens quickly. 

​I am calling a pivot move, where he steps off, pivots and throws all at the same time. Snap throw works for me too. I don't call this a disengage as far as the 2 base award.

I agree that the foot SHOULD land first, and we do let that go often. But, if they want to feint to 1B, then they need to do it right - step off - separate - then turn shoulders or whatever they are trying to do. We let many of these feints, that could be balks go if they are close (as we should), it really depends on the level of play.

On a lefty that steps off, pauses then makes a bad throw out of play, then I can see the 2 base award every time - I righty has a lot of movements and usually combines them all into 1 move.

[Jimurray]

​I am calling a pivot move, where he steps off, pivots and throws all at the same time. Snap throw works for me too. I don't call this a disengage as far as the 2 base award.

I agree that the foot SHOULD land first, and we do let that go often. But, if they want to feint to 1B, then they need to do it right - step off - separate - then turn shoulders or whatever they are trying to do. We let many of these feints, that could be balks go if they are close (as we should), it really depends on the level of play.

On a lefty that steps off, pauses then makes a bad throw out of play, then I can see the 2 base award every time - I righty has a lot of movements and usually combines them all into 1 move.

​I would call the "pivot" move a dissengage if the pivot foot landed behind the rubber and then the non pivot lifts toward 1B. I could see calling it a jab step and not a dissengage if both feet moved at the same time a la @Maven post. 

[maven]

​@maven ......So when a pitcher does not throw in this situation would you consider it a balk?

​Yep.