Clarifying a rule with another umpire

[johnnyg08]

I met a guy at our clinic yesterday who I feel had a pretty major misunderstanding of a rule. 

 

There's a chance that at some point we will work together.

 

When I tried to explain it to him he blew me off in a condescending manner and in as many words stated that I didn't know what I was talking about.

 

I'm looking for advice on how to point out the flaws in his reasoning without coming off as a blowhard know-it-all because that's not my intent.

 

Of course, the path of least resistance is to simply do nothing.  

 

I've thought about playing it like I'm agreeing with him and asking him to clarify for me asking him questions about certain things written in the rule book...hoping that he'll figure out that he's wrong on his own.  

 

I think the guy has some credibility with the group so I feel it's important that he's correct when he's talking w/ people.

 

 

Please offer your advice.  

 

 

 

 

[SJA]

Let him hang himself. Conceit is what makes a foolish little squirt think he's a fountain of knowledge.

SJA :-)

[grayhawk]

Without knowing which rule you are referring to, it's hard to recommend a strategy for showing him the light.

[johnnyg08]

Without knowing which rule you are referring to, it's hard to recommend a strategy for showing him the light.

 

Hidden ball trick coming out of a dead ball situation.  

[Rich Ives]

 

Without knowing which rule you are referring to, it's hard to recommend a strategy for showing him the light.

 

Hidden ball trick coming out of a dead ball situation.  

 

 

What's the issue?

[johnnyg08]

In order for the ball to be put back into play the pitcher must have the baseball. 

 

NCAA 6-6 

 

After a dead ball, play resumes when the pitcher engages the rubber with possession of the ball, the batter assumes his position in the batter's box, and the umpire calls or signals "Play."

[WIUMP]

What is your colleague's interpretation? The rule seems pretty direct in terms of its application to the hidden ball trick. 

[johnnyg08]

He felt that the status of the ball was irrelevant to the hidden ball trick...he misinterpreted how teams actually execute the hidden ball trick to some back yard baseball myth.  

[basejester]

So, what's your partner going to call?  A balk?

[johnnyg08]

So, what's your partner going to call?  A balk?

 

Yes.  That was the crux of his argument.  My contention was that we can't call a balk b/c the ball is dead and by rule we can't put the ball back into play until the pitcher has the baseball and all of the other elements of the rule 6-6 are met. 

[MadMax]

I'm of the opinion that if you've got a/the rulebook, his "misunderstanding" or "misinterpretation" needs to be addressed because if he ever gets a situation like this wrong, it is going to cause a major sh!tstorm. NCAA games have 2 (3?) man crews, so at least one other umpire is going to be getting pelted without an umbrella.

 

That rule citation is pretty clear – those criteria have to be met before the PU calls "Play". Otherwise, the ball remains dead, with the widows weeping over it.

 

As far as how to approach him, that takes more tact. It is best to adopt two manners of phrasing: 1) "You are wrong". Instead, "That (or Your) interpretation is wrong." 1.5) Make sure you use the word "Because". 2) "I was right." Instead, "The rulebook states it here."
 

Remove yourself (as a subject) from any argument. All you are is the presenter of the rulebook. If you project yourself – as justified as you feel you are and would like to make him aware of it, in retribution of his condescending brush-off of you – into the discussion, it will become an attack / defense argument, and you'll just make it worse. When are people (in this case, him) most pressured to change? When they are caught between an irresistible force and an immovable object. The immovable object in your favor? The rulebook. Let it speak for you.

[MPLSUMP]

An honest attempt was made at a discussion. Some guys might speak before they think on occasion. I know I've been guilty of that. You tried. Sometimes with the "yeah, but" guys, it's best to just move on.

[maven]

Asking questions is less confrontational than making statements. "How can you call a balk when the ball is dead?" or "Don't we have to make the ball live before the defense can either attempt a play or be guilty of an infraction?"

That said, some guys won't engage in rules discussion. They have priorities other than improving their skills and getting it right. On the field, it's difficult to move them off their spot, which means they're likely to take the whole crew down when they screw it up. Good people to avoid as partners, if you've got any juice with assigners.

maven

[basejester]

Maybe you could ask for a rules presentation from an authority figure that covers the hidden ball trick during a clinic or meeting. 

[Jimurray]

Asking questions is less confrontational than making statements. "How can you call a balk when the ball is dead?" or "Don't we have to make the ball live before the defense can either attempt a play or be guilty of an infraction?"

I agree that you can't balk a dead ball hidden ball trick but those questions could be bring up some questions in the book wording. The NCAA rule says its a balk to be on the dirt during an attempted hidden ball trick. They don't say that hidden ball trick has to happen with a live ball. Also can the defense be guilty of an infraction and be penalized during a dead ball? Foul ball returned to pitcher, he tries to apply a doctoring substance. Do we wait to make the ball live to apply the penalty.

We had a couple of our guys balk a dead ball hidden ball trick to send a HS game into extra innings. They quoted the rule to the coach and nobody protested. I think I convinced them they were wrong but some guys were not convinced.

[johnnyg08]

In order to make the ball live, the pitcher must have the ball in his glove (as well as the other components in the rule)  Without all of those things, the ball cannot be made live.

 

During a live ball hidden ball trick, the pitcher has certain restrictions.  Failure to follow those rules, a balk is the result during live ball. 

 

As umpires, we don't put the ball in play until all of the components are met before we make a ball live.

 

If we fail at our job, and put the ball in play when we shouldn't have, the teams are not penalized.  We simply make it right and put the ball in play when we are allowed to do so by rule.

[Majordave]

JohnnyG,

I know you do college so it doesn't happen very often in those games but do you ever work high school or youth where your partner(s) don't have a lot of advanced level training and they seldom, if ever, point and call the ball back into play? (although officially and formally putting the ball back in play after a dead ball situation is NOT an advanced mechanic in my opinion)

I do my best to cover it in pregame or tell them to do it after I notice they aren't doing so but some of these guys just don't get it. Like the indicator on the bases. Makes me crazy.

[maven]

The NCAA rule says its a balk to be on the dirt during an attempted hidden ball trick. They don't say that hidden ball trick has to happen with a live ball.

I don't work NCAA, but the comparable FED rule makes it a balk for F1 to be on the rubber during an attempted hidden ball trick. The purpose of the rule is to constrain the defense's possible deception. I would rule the same in both cases: since it is impossible even to attempt a hidden ball trick during a dead ball, there is no advantage possible and so no infraction here.

The fact that they might THINK that they can attempt the hidden ball trick during a dead ball is neither here nor there, and I'm not penalizing them for being incorrect about this.

 

Also can the defense be guilty of an infraction and be penalized during a dead ball? Foul ball returned to pitcher, he tries to apply a doctoring substance. Do we wait to make the ball live to apply the penalty.

You're right of course: you can have OBS or MC during a homerun trot, which occurs during a dead ball. I might still use the question to get a recalcitrant partner to open his mind a bit.

[Richvee]

JohnnyG,

I know you do college so it doesn't happen very often in those games but do you ever work high school or youth where your partner(s) don't have a lot of advanced level training and they seldom, if ever, point and call the ball back into play? (although officially and formally putting the ball back in play after a dead ball situation is NOT an advanced mechanic in my opinion)

I do my best to cover it in pregame or tell them to do it after I notice they aren't doing so but some of these guys just don't get it. Like the indicator on the bases. Makes me crazy.

100% agree about the guys who refuse to put the ball in play even after explaining to them why they need to, but not putting the ball in play akin to using an indicator on the bases? Not even close. Unless it's one of those BU's that can't take their eyes off the indicator, and can't advance the wheels without staring at it.  

[WIUMP]

Apparently, this was a frequently inquired about situation here in Wisconsin.

 

http://www.wiaawi.org/News/NewsReleases/tabid/113/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4349/Hidden-Ball-Trick.aspx

 

(hopefully this link works)

[johnnyg08]

Apparently, this was a frequently inquired about situation here in Wisconsin.

 

http://www.wiaawi.org/News/NewsReleases/tabid/113/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4349/Hidden-Ball-Trick.aspx

 

(hopefully this link works)

 

 

I'm grinning for many reasons.  Thank you for posting this.

[MadMax]

Apparently, this was a frequently inquired about situation here in Wisconsin.

 

http://www.wiaawi.org/News/NewsReleases/tabid/113/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4349/Hidden-Ball-Trick.aspx

 

(hopefully this link works)

 

And FYI (and thanks to @Matthew Turner's reference finding), the WIAA = Wisconsin Interscholastic Athletic Association, better known as High School. Yes indeed, folks, we have ourselves a NFHS rule citation and interpretation. These things come up across all codes and levels, and it boils down to the same thing – if the ball is dead, then nothing can happen until the ball is live again. This includes declaring a balk. And the only way the ball should be made live again is once (those, whichever the ruleset outlines) criteria are met and the PU indicates "Play".

 

Bonus: This is yet another plug as to why it is so important to A) Be frugal in granting / calling time, thus making the ball dead, and B) Be consistent (all the time, every time) in indicating the ball made live (back in play) with a vocal command when runners are on base (gesture only needed when bases are empty).

[Majordave]

@Richvee

 

I consider them together because no trained college baseball umpire has a problem properly doing/not doing either thing and I hate working with guys who do/don't do what they are supposed to do as the case may be.

 

My thoughts on the indicator issue:  Because, if they are Smitty enough to carry the indicator on the field they are inevitably Smitty enough to be looking at it at some point or another and miss a play. I have asked a partner or two if I can see their indicator.  Then, when they hand it to me, I walk away with it.  But only when they are constantly looking at it.  And yes, I have had a partner miss a balk and miss a pickoff because they were looking at their damn indicator.  It is NOT the base umpire's job to know, give or even keep up with the count for players or coaches as far as I am concerned.  When asked the count when I am working bases, I usually know but  even IF I don't know I just say that is his job and point at the plate umpire. If it matters I tell the player or coach to call time and we can ask the plate umpire.

 

Occasionally I have a plate umpire partner, not in college baseball, who does not give the count very loudly or often enough (odd number pitches, after a time out or foul ball) so I will ask them to do so in between innings.  Sometimes it works.   Some of these guys with 1 year of experience for the past 15-20 years or more have bad habits so ingrained that they can't or won't fix it.  These are the guys I dislike working with and avoid whenever possible.  When I was a coach I scratched these guys because if they were too lazy or inattentive to give and keep up with the count they were too lazy to move to properly cover a base or do anything else properly like know the rules. Just my thoughts.  Your mileage and opinion may vary.  If you are an indicator user, do what you feel you need to do for you but they do not teach you to carry or use one in college baseball on the bases.  And actually, my high school association that I started with did not allow the base umpire to carry or use an indicator.  I know of one slacker, a softball guy primarily who also worked some baseball, that had his games taken away and was essentially fired from working HS baseball for continuing to use it when asked not to.  He is one of them who I took it away from him because he missed a pickoff looking at it.  The only thing that guy got right was the count when he umpired.  He was a liability for the rest of us for sure.  That was during my first year of umpiring and I guess it settled it for me.  No indicators on the bases.  Easy enough.  One less thing to worry about out there.

 

Soapbox preacher time over.  

[Richvee]

@Majordave

 

I understand.

I do carry an indicator on the bases, and here's why.....

 

"Occasionally I have a plate umpire partner, not in college baseball, who does not give the count very loudly or often enough (odd number pitches, after a time out or foul ball) so I will ask them to do so in between innings.  Sometimes it works.   Some of these guys with 1 year of experience for the past 15-20 years or more have bad habits so ingrained that they can't or won't fix it." 

 

I do not do college ball, and unfortunately, the type partner you mention here are a little more than  "occasional" for me at some of the levels I work. If I'm on the bases, and I find I've got a competent, professional partner behind the plate, that indicator will stay in my pocket all night. If not, I'm keeping the count myself. The day I miss a pitch, balk, pickoff or anything else because I'm looking at the indicator will be the day I throw it away. 

[Majordave]

Fair enough.  Just know it's not your job to keep up with the count for anyone but yourself.   Do what works for you.   The real problem is untrained or lazy partners I guess.

[Thunderheads]

Johnny,

A guy like that, doing college ball, that argues, or insists he's right on something so obvious, shouldn't be doing college ball.  He'd be a "block out" person on Arbiter.