A Hypothetical Question

alex7 · July 8, 2014

Some associations have top umpires/teachers/pro-school grads that give you camp-level training for free.

Many of us, even if we get to a small college level, wouldn't deem it worth it to move family or change real jobs in order to pursue a more lucrative big college career.

Thus, we enjoy the equipment more and likely settle for affordable regional training. My .02

Stan W. · July 8, 2014

This is a great question....

In my association, when we are looking at pulling up an umpire to do higher levels we first assess whether or not they are "invested" in umpiring..........how do you judge investment?......

General Ability
meeting attendence
clinic attendence
educational opportunities sought
game managment skills
meeting uniform standards
proper gear
committment to their schedule, (includes the travel needed to do that circut)....

You cant buy your way to higher baseball.......top uniforms and gear only gets you to the point where your onfield performance will give you away......I know there is probably a good umpire out there who is shabbily dressed and uses old gear, but NONE of the Umpires I respect and admire and who have the resume I aspire to have, would ever do so........

AS to whether or not to spend the money on good uniforms and gear or good education its not either/or..........its AND.......imho.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Stan W.
clarity

J_Adams · July 8, 2014

Umpiring starts with appearance. If you look the part then coaches will at least think you know what you are doing... until the game starts. That's where camps and clinics come into play.

If you have the time, and the $500 that @MidAmUmp is giving us, go to a camp. Be it a HS, College, or Pro camp. You will learn a ton of great information and learn what your assignor or instructors are looking for. At least that is my mind set.

I plan on going to 3 or 4 college camps this Fall to keep working on my skills. If I don't move up or get picked up into another conference, that's fine because I know that I will learn something to make me a better umpire for the games that I get to work the next year.

grayhawk · July 8, 2014

I would love to attend higher level clinics, and would be more than willing to invest the money to do so. What makes it almost impossible is that I have a family and I am not spending my limited vacation days away from them. I have attended many local clinics, including 3 last year that were either 1 or 2 days clinics, but to spend an entire week away from the family to support my avocation is not happening at this point. Perhaps I will rethink this once the kids have grown and are in college or are out on their own.

MidAmUmp · July 8, 2014

This is a great question....

In my association, when we are looking at pulling up an umpire to do higher levels we first assess whether or not they are "invested" in umpiring..........how do you judge investment?......

General Ability

meeting attendence

clinic attendence

educational opportunities sought

game managment skills

meeting uniform standards

proper gear

committment to their schedule, (includes the travel needed to do that circut)....

You cant buy your way to higher baseball.......top uniforms and gear only gets you to the point where your onfield performance will give you away......I know there is probably a good umpire out there who is shabbily dressed and uses old gear, but NONE of the Umpires I respect and admire and who have the resume I aspire do so........

its not either or..........its AND.......imho.

Not meaning to hijack my own topic, but, @FleasOf1000Camels - read this post. This would be very good advice for dealing with the slappy in your association.

We kind of have this in place in our association, but I think this is something we need to do a better job of, especially since we're getting some offers for youth tournaments in the area and we're going to have to expand our membership to include youth level umpires.

MidAmUmp · July 8, 2014

I would love to attend higher level clinics, and would be more than willing to invest the money to do so. What makes it almost impossible is that I have a family and I am not spending my limited vacation days away from them. I have attended many local clinics, including 3 last year that were either 1 or 2 days clinics, but to spend an entire week away from the family to support my avocation is not happening at this point. Perhaps I will rethink this once the kids have grown and are in college or are out on their own.

This is something we all have to deal with. I usually miss Easter (more conferences are playing Thurs-Sat which helps) and this year was the first Mother's Day I've been home in over 10 years (series moved up due to weather).

Fortunately my wife and 2 sons birthdays are in the summer so I don't miss any of them. But I miss my own birthday every year because of an umpire clinic that weekend.

A lot of us celebrate things later. If I'm gone Mother's Day weekend, we have Mother's Day weekend later in the year, and so on.

It's tough to be gone, but we have to reinvest a portion of our game fees in our families. Whether that's a vacation, paying off bills, buying a new car, etc. it's something we all need to do. That's why my hypothetical question says just $500 to put back into umpiring. That's a weekend tournament for some...a single game fee for the lucky ones.

Forest Ump · July 8, 2014

I don't necessarily subscribe to having the latest and greatest gear. I did however buy good gear shortly after I started out. I currently use a Platinum CP with a modified harness, Wilson Titanium mask with Wendy Pads, and Honig Shin Guards. What I believe is of the utmost importance regarding gear is appearance of uniform. I make sure my pants are pressed, my shirts are fitted (tapered), ball bags are clean and my shoes look good.

Now take that appearance to some excellent clinics in your local area, hustle your ass off at that clinic. You will get noticed and will move up. It's inevitable.It's worked for me.

.

MikeSafari · July 8, 2014

I guess I'm sort of an edge case, but for me it's entirely up in the air.

This year, I've probably spent nearly $1,000 on gear because I've needed to get pants, shirts, belts, caps, shoes, assorted protective gear, etc. I guess that's what I get for jumping back in with a bit of enthusiasm

That being said, I'm pretty happy with my gear setup as it stands right now (could use a couple extra pairs of pants and compression baselayers, but beyond that I'm good), so I'd definitely drive that $500 into a clinic or two. Unfortunately there aren't very many clinics near me that fit with my schedule either but if there were more that did I'd certainly look at those.

When I last umpired, I was taking an 8-week course once a year in the off-season that I found immensely valuable. As far as I know, there aren't many more clinics like that in the Great White North (at least, not near me). I'd love to spend a week or month in the States just training, but it's not very feasible.

umpstu · July 8, 2014

This is the best post I have read in a while. The gear I have most guys would drool over. However I have attended three 3 man camps In the past 7 years. Guys should spend more $$ on training than gear. midam is correct. Many conferences are going 4 man and there will be a trickle down effect. WE NEED good umpires.

Especially those Mizuno plate shoes.

JaxRolo · July 8, 2014

Good gear good clinics/camps every year.<br />I work with top level guys at Perfect Game all the the time. Minor Leagues guys and all levels of college guys. I have tried to get into college ball with no luck. Our area college association has a monopoly in the state. Very hard to get in. The old farts hang around till they die then replace them with young Umpire School grads. At 54 I have no chance here.

Mad Mike · July 8, 2014

Speaking of clinics, has anyone attended Jim Evans Desert Classic before? If so, I am considering going, so please share any experiences, observations, and opinions if this is a worthwhile clinic.

Majordave · July 9, 2014

I would like to echo @Chris Hickman's comment and others who think this is a great topic. Kudos to you Jason. It is a very thought provoking and serious topic.

My own sad tale. I am lucky and blessed and crazy enough to do both. I have been to three high school level clinics over the years and six different college three man clinics. (Scott Erby and Tony Walsh's Mid-South Umpires Clinics in 2007 and 2008, Tony Thompson's International Three-man Camp in 2008, Chris Coskey's Mid-American Advanced Umpire Clinic in 2011, Topeka Premier Umpire Clinic in 2011 and 2013.) I have had three MLB umpires/former umpires evaluate my work-Jim Evans himself, Paul Nauert and Ed Rapuano, I have had instruction from CWS veteran umpires Joe Burleson, Jeff Henrichs, Tony Walsh. Scott Erby, Chris Coskey, Jeff Head, Tony Maners and others whose names escape me at the moment and at least a dozen or two Division 1 conference umpires as partners and instructors. I have worked with and/or been evaluated by at least three dozen former professional Minor League Baseball umpires over the years.

As far as gear goes, I own nothing but the best gear, Honig's Poly-Wools, Wilson Titanium mask, Gerry Davis Custom plate coat in black, navy plate coat by Fechheimer, Gerry Davis, New Balance and Reebok Plate shoes shined like mirrors, Honig's shirts, creased hats, oakley half-jacket XLJ sunglasses with three different lens arrays, West Vest Gold CP, Honig's K-1 CP, Original West Vest CP with "patent pending" on the breast plate, WV Platinum CP, +POS Samurai CP, Unequal Force 3 CP and Shinguards, glossy belt, plain leather belt, Honigs and Ump-Attire ultimate ball bags, Force 3 Ultimate Umpire Ball Bags, Honig's suit bag with my uniform number like the shirts and jackets sewn on it, Majestic Jackets in black/white and black/polo/white shoulders, Honigs microfiber jackets, etc, etc, etc.

My whine: I am now 52 years old. I started umpiring at age 43 at the high school varsity level. My first game as an umpire had two future major leaguers playing in it (Nick Maronde-LA Angels and Ben Revere-Twins and now Phillies). I have worked amateur and college at four professional fields and done some pretty big games. I regularly work over 200 games a year. Last year it was 352 games. I go to the NCAA clinic almost every year. I rarely turn back games after accepting them. (Maybe four times in the past ten years and the turn backs were more than 48 hours prior to the game's scheduled date and were for work issues or a family emergency-once). I try to be a good partner. I bring extra drinks. I drive a lot. Rarely ask for or accept gas money. Always offer gas money when I ride with another partner. I don't run down my assigners or other umpires about the game assignments. I offer advice to younger umpires when asked and warranted. I do talk a lot, to anyone who will listen but it is with good intent and usually about baseball or something humorous like my adventures in the military or with females.

I have gotten only a handful of non-conference D1 games over the years in spite of the fact that I work at least three to as many as 15 D1 Pre-season and fall ball intrasquad scrimmages per year.

The Major League umpires, all three of them, told me not to change anything I do in my plate work. I have Ed Rapuano on videotape discussing my plate work to my cage group as the example to follow.

I am in excellent physical shape for my age. 5'9", reasonably muscular, no pot belly, 195 lbs, 44" chest, 34" waist. I can run all day on the diamond and get into position from A to C/3B, Run to cover first in two-man mechanics if partner goes out, run to 3B and be waiting on the play from the plate. I have even gotten as far as the edge of the grass on deep fly balls to CF with no runners on and to the edge of the grass at 2B before the play for FPSR calls.

I regularly and consistently have the losing coach and catcher and sometimes pitchers and fans chase me down or walk up to me after a game to tell me "Great or good game". "Great consistency in my zone" "Great to work with you" "I like the number of strikes you call and the consistency" "I loved your strike zone tonight"

When I go to clinics I take the advice and try to apply it. Even though different college instructors offer conflicting advice. "You need to hammer strikes" "No, you need to be pointing called strikes" "You need to be louder" "Too loud, don't try to stick it up their ass" "You need to get closer to the catcher" "You're too close to the catcher" "You're too close on force plays" You need to get closer to see force plays" "You need to be hands on knees set before the call" "You need to stand up more and not have your hands on your knees so much", etc., etc. and on and on.

I only know of one blown rule in all my work since I started working college and it was an extremely weird play.

Yet, in spite of all of my efforts I cannot get any D1 Non-Conference work here and only worked one D2 Conference weekend this past season as a fill-in guy.

One of my assigners, the SH*#tiest NAIA conference baseball I have ever seen or can imagine is ever played, has the gall to recently tell me that out of over 75 umpires in the conference I am one of the bottom 15, a "Tier 3 Umpire" according to his evaluations from coaches, my partners and other assigners and that I need to come to his "camp/clinic" later this month and work a tournament for free AND pay him and his fellow "instructors" to evaluate me and bring up my game so I can get out of Tier 3 and not be in jeopardy of losing games in his SH*#ty conference that pays the lowest fees and the teams play the SH*#tiest baseball AND I have to drive three and four hours for most of the games. This past season I worked a total of 4 Varsity dates in the conference. Two were conference dates and two were first week or two of the season non-conference games where I stayed in a motel at my own expense to work two days in a row and help him out. Did I mention that this is a "Christian" conference and the only college ejections I have had since my first season of college baseball have been in this conference? I have asked this guy for copies of my evaluations on three occasions, all in writing, and he has indicated that he "Can't get to that right now". His predecessor assigner emailed us copies of coach and assigner written evals no later than two days after a conference game or weekend. This year I never received any feedback of any kind from this guy or any coach until this unsubstantiated and unsupported "Tier 3" notification a few weeks ago.

So, Jason and any others who care to read all this whining and comment, What am I doing wrong? Is it my age? Do I really need more instruction? I love the camps/clinics and the camaraderie and stories but my budget and my heart along with my head are now telling me to just let it go, quit hoping for a chance to move up to a regular D2 conference and maybe some D1 non-conference and just work whatever I get, at whatever level and just be happy with whatever i get. What says the group? Is it possible I am sharing too much on this website and that is hurting me? Some other members I have personally messaged with indicated they do not share much or their real identities on the internet for fear of it affecting their conference status or hopes/dreams of conference work in the future.

Anyway, I try to be helpful and offer advice and some humor. Yes, I occasionally share some crazy stuff or be just plain old weird but I love umpiring and have no ill will for the game. I just cannot understand what I am doing wrong if all these slots are opening up as Jason says and I never get the chance to work that level.

So that's it. My personal bitch is over. I have resigned myself to the fact that the camps and clinics are not helping me move up. In fact, Jeff Henrichs asked me at the last clinic why I was here trying to move up? Shouldn't I be mentoring younger umpires at my age? Wow! That freaking hurt. As I can still move pretty good and don't think I look my age.

Any advice is appreciated.

MidAmUmp · July 9, 2014

@Majordave I'll either PM you or e-mail you with a more personal response.

First, I think several have misread or misunderstood what I was asking. I understand the need to have quality gear. The reason for my post was the trend to go overboard with purchasing gear. The 3-4 masks, the 3-4 chest protectors, all of that stuff. I just think to myself, you have a good mask...why do you need to drop $400+ on a Nike mask when you could have used that same money to go to a clinic and get in front of people who could really help your career - especially with all the movement at the college level right now. Someone is going to be needing to hire an entry level college umpire because everyone is moving up.

Now to respond to some of Dave's comments...

I am now 52 years old. I started umpiring at age 43 at the high school varsity level. - That's 11 years of true umpiring. I didn't break into D-I conference baseball until I had been umpiring 12-13 years. Also, unfortunately, as you move up you are competing with those straight out of "the game" and younger umpires who have a longer career ahead of them. A lot of people will say, "I wish I would have started earlier." Like it or not, it's a young man's game. Coaches are more forgiving of a young guy making "rookie mistakes" and less forgiving of a middle aged umpire making the same mistakes. I supervise for a conference and the feedback I get from the coaches is hire younger umpires.

I have worked amateur and college at four professional fields and done some pretty big games. - Irrelevant. As you know, I assign tournaments across the Midwest. Some games are played at some really nice fields. While it's nice to say you've worked there, it's not a resume builder.

I have gotten only a handful of non-conference D1 games over the years in spite of the fact that I work at least three to as many as 15 D1 Pre-season and fall ball intrasquad scrimmages per year. - Coaches like to see new umpires in the fall. If they like what they see they contact their assignor and tell them they want to see the guy in the spring. Sure, they're going to thank you for coming, tell you that you did a good job, give you some sort of compensation, etc., but sometimes that's just done so they aren't the "bad guy."

The Major League umpires, all three of them, told me not to change anything I do in my plate work...When I go to clinics I take the advice and try to apply it. Even though different college instructors offer conflicting advice. "You need to hammer strikes" "No, you need to be pointing called strikes" "You need to be louder" "Too loud, don't try to stick it up their ass" "You need to get closer to the catcher" "You're too close to the catcher" "You're too close on force plays" You need to get closer to see force plays" "You need to be hands on knees set before the call" "You need to stand up more and not have your hands on your knees so much", etc., etc. and on and on. - Welcome to the world of umpire clinics. MLB umpires are brought in to give some good advice, tell some war stories, get a laugh or two, and not be the bad guy. College umpires who instruct are looking for someone to be their partner. You'll never work with an MLB umpire, but you could very well work the next year with someone instructing at a college clinic. Therefore, MLB umpires aren't as personally invested in you as a college umpire is. Additionally, MLB/MiLB umpires have a strict set of standards - cookie cutter, if you will - everyone is evaluated the same way. It starts with Day 1 of umpire school. College umpires are going to give you what they've personally heard. There are over 3000 D-1 umpires from coast to coast. Every supervisor has their own way they like things done. College umpires are going to be more honest, but you are going to get conflicting information because what works for 1 guy doesn't work for another guy. You mention Jeff Henrichs. Jeff discusses this at length the first day of a clinic he runs - you are going to get conflicting information. We all have a tool box. Take the advice you get, put it in your tool box, and pull it out and try it. If it doesn't work, throw it away.

The rest I'll reply to you personally when I get a free minute.

MikeSafari · July 9, 2014

Jeff discusses this at length the first day of a clinic he runs - you are going to get conflicting information. We all have a tool box. Take the advice you get, put it in your tool box, and pull it out and try it. If it doesn't work, throw it away.

This is the best analogy I've heard for the various mechanics and interpretations we can be taught.

basejester · July 9, 2014

Time is more limiting than cost for me, so the question as posed is false dichotomy for my situation.

I went to a week-long school this year and a couple of one-day clinics at Little League Central Region HQ and learned a lot. I hope to attend the school again next year.

Fittske24 · July 9, 2014

I am an admitted gear whore. I have 2 Nike masks, one Mizuno mask, 2 Douglas CPs, 2 Vintage WVG's and countless other umpiring odds and ends in my gear bag (which is an ebag by the way). Anyone that knows me from this forum knows I can talk gear with the best of them....but those who know me personally, know gear comes second to my passion for learning about the rules, mechanics etc of umpiring.

With that said if I had $500 to spend on camp or equipment it qoud be no question it goes toward a reputable camp or clinic. However all camps/clinics aren't created equal. Understand the premise of the camp before attending. Understand the difference between a "Fantasy" camp and a "Recruitment" camp. If they are not telling you that they will be hiring for conference/non conference assignment then don't expect it to happen regardless of how many Pro guys are in attendance telling you that your hammer looks solid.

Every year I invest some of my earned umpiring income in camps and clinics. Most often the camps and clinics I attend are evaluation camps. I look to get in front of evaluators and supervisors that will help further my career. I also do a self assessment to determine the areas of improvement my game needs. I use this to help me determine which fall camp I will attend. So far this formula has worked very well for me. This year completes my 4th season as a college umpire. A season that included 67 college games with 32 D1 games including non-conference games at several SEC and ACC schools, 9 conference weekends across 3 different conferences, and a NCAA D-lll regional.

What @MidAmUmp says is very true, conference coordinators will be looking to hire a crazy amount of umpires this fall. This fall for me will be no different than any other of my past four falls...I will be somewhere spending my $500 on sharpening my 4-man mechanics with hopes of getting hired to work in some of the premier conferences in America.

mbkcoach · July 9, 2014

Where and when are the recruitment camps?

Majordave · July 9, 2014

Jason,

I know we will discuss personally either by email or phone. But I want to personally and publicly thank you for your detailed and honest reply. I think you are the only admitted D1 Conference umpire on this website who actively posts and does not hide his identity. I truly appreciate your comments, explanation and honesty-both in this thread and in general when you offer advice and commentary. Thank you!

sdix00 · July 9, 2014

One of the best threads in long while. THIS is what I am looking for from this site.

I have bought a lot of gear for reasons other than gear whoring. I am always on the lookout for the best configuration. What looks the best, feels the best, works the best.

The best example of this is this truly pornographic thread on shirts.

I have also bought a lot of gear because I have three umpires in the house.

Additionally, I am a newer umpire, so I have wasted a lot of money on gear I ended up not liking.

Finally, the best lesson I learned on buying equipment came from a friend who keeps it simple. He buys only Honigs PWs and Majestic Black and Blue shirts (not every color of the rainbow), and keeps it similarly simple when it comes to other gear. Basically, find what works and then stop spending money.

What TRULY blows my mind, even more than the clinics vs gear question in the OP is the Clinics vs Volunteering question. I see so many new umpires volunteering their time, which is essentially writing checks to Little League rather than writing checks to themselves. IMO, newer umpires should be writing checks to clinicians, not to Little League.

That said, I have spent at least that much money on clinics, and have NEVER wasted a single penny. Evans Desert Classic, Western Region School, Wendelstedt Winter Classic, another half dozen weekend clinics, a mentor program, and registered for Black and Blue coming up in October.

Live and learn. Even though I endeavored to learn as much as possible before stepping on to too many fields, I still failed to learn where to put my money first.

umpstu · July 9, 2014

One of the best threads in long while. THIS is what I am looking for from this site.

I have bought a lot of gear for reasons other than gear whoring. I am always on the lookout for the best configuration. What looks the best, feels the best, works the best.

The best example of this is this truly pornographic thread on shirts.

I have also bought a lot of gear because I have three umpires in the house.

Additionally, I am a newer umpire, so I have wasted a lot of money on gear I ended up not liking.

Finally, the best lesson I learned on buying equipment came from a friend who keeps it simple. He buys only Honigs PWs and Majestic Black and Blue shirts (not every color of the rainbow), and keeps it similarly simple when it comes to other gear. Basically, find what works and then stop spending money.

What TRULY blows my mind, even more than the clinics vs gear question in the OP is the Clinics vs Volunteering question. I see so many new umpires volunteering their time, which is essentially writing checks to Little League rather than writing checks to themselves. IMO, newer umpires should be writing checks to clinicians, not to Little League.

That said, I have spent at least that much money on clinics, and have NEVER wasted a single penny. Evans Desert Classic, Western Region School, Wendelstedt Winter Classic, another half dozen weekend clinics, a mentor program, and registered for Black and Blue coming up in October.

Live and learn. Even though I endeavored to learn as much as possible before stepping on to too many fields, I still failed to learn where to put my money first.

See you at the Black and Blue clinic

umpstu · July 9, 2014

One of the best threads in long while. THIS is what I am looking for from this site.

I have bought a lot of gear for reasons other than gear whoring. I am always on the lookout for the best configuration. What looks the best, feels the best, works the best.

The best example of this is this truly pornographic thread on shirts.

I have also bought a lot of gear because I have three umpires in the house.

Additionally, I am a newer umpire, so I have wasted a lot of money on gear I ended up not liking.

Finally, the best lesson I learned on buying equipment came from a friend who keeps it simple. He buys only Honigs PWs and Majestic Black and Blue shirts (not every color of the rainbow), and keeps it similarly simple when it comes to other gear. Basically, find what works and then stop spending money.

What TRULY blows my mind, even more than the clinics vs gear question in the OP is the Clinics vs Volunteering question. I see so many new umpires volunteering their time, which is essentially writing checks to Little League rather than writing checks to themselves. IMO, newer umpires should be writing checks to clinicians, not to Little League.

That said, I have spent at least that much money on clinics, and have NEVER wasted a single penny. Evans Desert Classic, Western Region School, Wendelstedt Winter Classic, another half dozen weekend clinics, a mentor program, and registered for Black and Blue coming up in October.

Live and learn. Even though I endeavored to learn as much as possible before stepping on to too many fields, I still failed to learn where to put my money first.

The volunteering thing gives you much needed experience, but if you've never been shown the right way to do things then what you are getting out of it is working on judgement. You could be doing everything wrong and not even know it because that coach or Mom is saying, "Hey, great job". These are more than likely hobby coaches who don't have a clue. Depending where you live, a good place to learn are lower level minor league games. These guys may not have the best judgement yet, but boy do they know their mechanics.

I'll go to the BBUC this year and try to pass on the knowledge I gain to the umpires in my high school association. And that will probably only be a select few as quite a few are perfect umpires and have no room for improvement.. There's nothing like hearing a veteran telling a less experienced umpire that you can be either a low strike umpire or a high strike umpire. WTF? Also telling coaches that it is ok for his players to have their feet crossing the line between the batter's box and the plate, even after reading the damn rule stating the opposite.

There are quite a few 2 man clinics out there, just find out who will be instructing them. In Southern California that is more than likely going to be a heck of a staff. There are some fantastic umpires out in this area. Some of these clinics are free and they are good.

Haid D' Salaami · July 9, 2014

I will chime in....

I agree with Midamup 100%..

people on here talk about mask porn, and all the other stuff you guys need.. but wont spend 250 to attend a great clinic.. and wont to know why they are not moving up.

I havent bought gear ( other than shirt for conferences or pants) in 4 years.

mbkcoach · July 10, 2014

Can somebody pm the names of these great clinics on the east coast? I'm a HS head football coach so something's I'm not gonna be able to do during football season.

Jbpump15 · July 10, 2014

@Majordave I'm in close to the same boat as you however I'm considerably younger. At 26 years old I am a varsity level baseball umpire. I do not get many playoff games due to my coach rating which I'm told by my assignors is due to my unwillingness to kiss a high school coaches rear and let them whine and complain about every call made. I unfortunately made some unwise decisions in high school that kept me from attending umpire school which has had me playing catch up ever since. As far as clinics, I'm a machinist so I can't justify a week away from my job and family to be able to umpire better games, so in the mean time I keep plugging away, keep having fun on the field and trying to find a happy medium of winning over ratings while keeping my dignity.

JHSump · July 10, 2014

Can somebody pm the names of these great clinics on the east coast? I'm a HS head football coach so something's I'm not gonna be able to do during football season.

Why pm? Just put them in this thread, please.

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