Appeal at 1B - BR never reached

[grayhawk]

From the WUM:

 

R2, R3, 2 outs, 1-1 count.  The batter hits a ball down the right field line.  As he reaches the 45' line, the BR severely twists his ankle and falls down.  R3 easily scores and R2 touches third base and attempts to advance to the plate.  The right fielder, not seeing the BR lying between home and first base, throws the ball to home plate.  The throw beats R2 easily and he is called out by the plate umpire.  The defense, seeing that the BR has not yet reached first base, tags first base, appealing that he never touched it.

 

Ruling?

[afaber12]

Assuming at least one of the infielders or the pitcher have not crossed the foul line, call the 4th out, no runs score. The 4th out is recorded in the scorebook as the 3rd, and the 3rd is not recorded. (Presumably something like 9-(4-)2-3.) The comments at the end of 7.10 cover this, and the potential 5th out and so on. Same situation, but BR misses 1B trying to reach 2B, tagged out at 2B after both runners cross for the 3rd out. F5 sees that R2 misses 3B and is 4th out on appeal to lose 1 run. F3 sees BR miss, and is then the 5th out on appeal. No runs score. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kevin_K]

BR out. No runs score. Fourth out on force play appeal negates any preceding runs.

 

Sucks to be the BR, but it is what it is.

[sdix00]

I've been tripped up by this play.   Score the run.  That's all I will say.   I'm ready when it happens. 

[FlaUmp22]

No run scores, out at first is considered an advantageous fourth out and takes the place of the previous third out

[Jimurray]

No run scores, out at first is considered an advantageous fourth out and takes the place of the previous third out

The run scores. You can not appeal a base not yet reached. The defense is responsible for getting the third out at the appropriate base.

[scrounge]

 

No run scores, out at first is considered an advantageous fourth out and takes the place of the previous third out

The run scores. You can not appeal a base not yet reached. The defense is responsible for getting the third out at the appropriate base.

 

 

Yea, even though it's unconventional, wouldn't this really just be a fielder's choice? They could have thrown to first as the initial play but chose to go home instead. No missed base, so what's the appeal?

[FlaUmp22]

 

 

No run scores, out at first is considered an advantageous fourth out and takes the place of the previous third out

The run scores. You can not appeal a base not yet reached. The defense is responsible for getting the third out at the appropriate base.

 

 

Yea, even though it's unconventional, wouldn't this really just be a fielder's choice? They could have thrown to first as the initial play but chose to go home instead. No missed base, so what's the appeal?

 

 

I can see it going either way now... but there is a case play in the J/R which states it is an advantageous fourth out and no runs score

[maven]

There are 2 kinds of appeal: retouch and missed base. Which would this be?

[Jimurray]

The BRD has all three codes agreeing in 2001 that this would be an advantageous fourth out. But Carl calls it a non - intuitive interpretation and hopes it never happens to himself or the rest of us. Wendelstedt in the 2011 manual I have reverses that interp. when the JR interp was made I don't know. I'm calling the run scored and will leave it up to the protest committee.

[FlaUmp22]

The J/R I have has a copyright date of 2011

[Jimurray]

The J/R I have has a copyright date of 2011

So when did Grayhawk buy his WUM? If its later he wins. Not really, but I like the WUM interp better. And Carl did not like the interps he got in 2001.

[maven]

And Carl did not like the interps he got in 2001.

And for good reason: they have no basis in the rules.

 

The nominal reason to discount the run would be 4.09: the BR is put out before reaching 1B. But there's already 3 outs: how can you put out the BR?

 

You could appeal. But there are just 2 kinds of appeal, and neither applies. Obviously not a retouch appeal, and a runner cannot miss a base until passing it.

 

There's no way to leverage 4.09 to apply to this situation. Count the run.

[umpcoachfather]

Several Rules that may apply here -

 

Rule 4.09 Comment: APPROVED RULING: No run shall score during a play in which the

third out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second,

Smith on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two

outs. But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out.

Three outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batterrunner

before he touched first base, Jones’ run does not count.

 

7.12 Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding

runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the

third out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force

play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score.

 

6.05 APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is

advancing and who is called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced

one base for the purpose of this rule.

 

J.  After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he

touches first base;

[scrounge]

Several Rules that may apply here -

 

Rule 4.09 Comment: APPROVED RULING: No run shall score during a play in which the

third out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second,

Smith on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two

outs. But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out.

Three outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batterrunner

before he touched first base, Jones’ run does not count.

 

7.12 Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding

runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the

third out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force

play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score.

 

6.05 APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is

advancing and who is called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced

one base for the purpose of this rule.

 

J.  After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he

touches first base;

 

Doesn't this prove @maven's point?  The defense, through their fielder's choice, chose to make the 3rd out on R2. They certainly could have made the 3rd out on the B/R, but they didn't. So, seems like 4.09 is out.  Does 7.12 apply if there's nothing to appeal? The runner didn't miss the base - can't miss what you never reached in the first place. Retouch isn't the situation, so that's out too. Similar for 6.05 - neither a miss nor a tag occurred.

[umpcoachfather]

I'm not sure after reading all these.  I'm thinking that discounting everything else, BR never touched 1st and was out on appeal, no runs can score. The way they word this "6.05 APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing"

Advancing being the key word, it doesnt say advanced, like he missed it, advancing like he never got there????  I cant see how this is in any way different than the other scenerios of not touching 1st and being called out on appeal - and the 4th out thing, its considered an out and still the final out.  Love to see a pros interp on this.  Is it the same as abandoning his attempt at reaching the base?  I may consider that too. 

Although the defense didnt see it, was the offense given an unfair advantage?  I'd probably go out at first on appeal, no runs score.   

[sdix00]

I'm not sure after reading all these.  I'm thinking that discounting everything else, BR never touched 1st and was out on appeal, no runs can score. The way they word this "6.05 APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing"

Advancing being the key word, it doesnt say advanced, like he missed it, advancing like he never got there????  I cant see how this is in any way different than the other scenerios of not touching 1st and being called out on appeal - and the 4th out thing, its considered an out and still the final out.  Love to see a pros interp on this.  Is it the same as abandoning his attempt at reaching the base?  I may consider that too. 

Although the defense didnt see it, was the offense given an unfair advantage?  I'd probably go out at first on appeal, no runs score.   

 

Frum the WUM:

8.4.1.b Appealable Plays 

Appeals may only be made for runners either missing bases, or not legally tagging up from a 

base. If a third out is  made during a play in which a runner never advances to a base he is 

forced to advance to (or the batter-runner never reaches first base), the defense may not then 

appeal that runner. This is  a base never reached, not one they missed or one they did not 

legally tag up from; it cannot be appealed.

 

 

 

The more I learn about this game, the more I hate the rule book.   I rely 99% on the umpire manuals at this point when learning to umpire a game.   

 

I will work backward from the manuals to the rule book only if I need to address a protest. 

 

The OBR is ridiculously incoherent.

 

[umpcoachfather]

If you're in the technology field and take microsoft or other system tests, I think the same people write the rule books and tests.  Appears they would rather confuse than clarify. 

[grayhawk]

So here's the ruling on this case play from the WUM:

 

Ruling:  The umpire should not recognize this appeal.  A runner cannot be appealed for "never reaching a base"; only for not touching one on his way past it, or for not legally tagging up from it.  In this situation, the third out has already been made at the plate on R2.  R3's run counts.  The defense is required to know that the BR has not reached first base, and if they would have retired him at first base instead of throwing the ball to the plate to retire R2, no runs would have scored.

 

Maven's post sums it up nicely.  The inning was over the instant the third out was made on R2 at the plate.  At this point, the ONLY way to get another out is via appeal (and before the defense leaves the field).  Since you can only appeal a missed base (not one that was never reached), or one that was not properly re-touched, then the appeal is not valid.  Score the run.

[umpcoachfather]

 Cheers!!!  Sounds good to me. 

[UmpJM]

So here's the ruling on this case play from the WUM:

 

 

 

Ruling:  The umpire should not recognize this appeal.  A runner cannot be appealed for "never reaching a base"; only for not touching one on his way past it, or for not legally tagging up from it.  In this situation, the third out has already been made at the plate on R2.  R3's run counts.  The defense is required to know that the BR has not reached first base, and if they would have retired him at first base instead of throwing the ball to the plate to retire R2, no runs would have scored.

 

Maven's post sums it up nicely.  The inning was over the instant the third out was made on R2 at the plate.  At this point, the ONLY way to get another out is via appeal (and before the defense leaves the field).  Since you can only appeal a missed base (not one that was never reached), or one that was not properly re-touched, then the appeal is not valid.  Score the run.

 

Grayhawk,

 

What about a BOOT appeal? Or an illegal bat? Or glove?

 

Could that nullify the run?

 

JM

[basejester]

Here's another scenario involving the same principle:

 

R2, R3, 2 out.

Ground ball to F5.

R3 touches home.

F5 makes a tag of opportunity on R2 for the third out.

F5 throws to first base to attempt to record an advantageous 4th out on the BR.