Fair or Foul

[Guest Nick]

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding the MLB official rules regarding fair balls, specifically the meaning of a ball that first fall in fair territory "on or beyond first base or third base."

Here is the definition:

A

FAIR BALL

is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory

on or beyond first base or third base

, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

This definition is pretty clear for a ball hit down the line, but what if a fly ball gets hit, and lands behind the pitchers mound in the infield grass, but hits a water spigot (or rock or something in the field). As a result of the object it hits, it bounces in front of third base and rolls to a stop in foul territory, without being touched by anyone prior to it settling. Is this a fair ball or foul ball?

I have read in other forums that in some rule books it talks about an "imaginary line" drawn from first base to third base. Are we to assume that MLB means the same thing when it says "beyond first base or third base?" If that is the case, is the imaginary line drawn between

the front edge of the bag: <>____________<> ,

or from the middle of the bag: <>-------------------<>, or from the back?

Or alternatively does "beyond first base or third base" mean "beyond an arc in the infield that is 90 feet from home plate".... or even "beyond the line drawn from third to second to first."

I know the chances of this happening are less than winning the lottery but I am really curious and would love to hear your thoughts!

Thanks,

Nick

[semper_fi_72]

Nick

It would be a foul ball.

I have had a batted ball hit the pitching rubber and go foul.

On a ground ball, to be fair it must pass over a part of the bag or pass the bag.

Think of a pane of glass standing up over 1st or 3rd.

If the ball even nicks the glass it is fair, otherwise it is foul.

In your sit even though it is a fly ball, it landed in the infield and deflected foul.

It is treated the same as a ground ball.

[guyinaredhat]

Without seeing it the ball is fair. The second it landed in fair territory beyond 1 and 3 the it's fair. The line is drawn from the the front edge hat a if a batted ball hit the front edge of the bag.

[Guest Bretman]

The "imaginary line from first to third base" to determine if a batted ball has landed "beyond the bases" is an NFHS/high school baseball interpretation. I think that they are the only ones that use that definition.

For OBR-based rule sets, "beyond first or third base" means beyond the "diamond" formed by the baselines directly connecting each base.

[guyinaredhat]

The pitching rubber isn't beyond 1 at and 3 rd so it would be foul off of that .

[noumpere]

The "imaginary line from first to third base" to determine if a batted ball has landed "beyond the bases" is an NFHS/high school baseball interpretation. I think that they are the only ones that use that definition.

For OBR-based rule sets, "beyond first or third base" means beyond the "diamond" formed by the baselines directly connecting each base.

correct answer from the guest. College is the same as OBR.

And the base is really a point in the ground so you could technically I guess make the case that it needs to go beyond the back edge of first or third to the middle of second. But Im not getting out my surveying equipment to see where the ball begins to back up.

[Jimurray]

The "imaginary line from first to third base" to determine if a batted ball has landed "beyond the bases" is an NFHS/high school baseball interpretation. I think that they are the only ones that use that definition.

For OBR-based rule sets, "beyond first or third base" means beyond the "diamond" formed by the baselines directly connecting each base.

correct answer from the guest. College is the same as OBR.

And the base is really a point in the ground so you could technically I guess make the case that it needs to go beyond the back edge of first or third to the middle of second. But Im not getting out my surveying equipment to see where the ball begins to back up.

Don't go there. Otherwise a ball that hits the front outside corner of the bag is fair by definition but a ball that bounds over that front corner but misses the back one (the base point) would be foul.

[Jocko]

In OBR, it's foul by definition. In Fed, I'm likely going to foul it too. I'm not shooting an azimuth between the bags, then a reverse azimuth to see if the ball crossed an imaginary line. I've seen balls hit the mound, the rubber, a temporary mound, etc. and then go foul. Sometimes ya just gotta umpire.

[noumpere]

Don't go there. Otherwise a ball that hits the front outside corner of the bag is fair by definition but a ball that bounds over that front corner but misses the back one (the base point) would be foul.

Yes and thats been discussed many times on the boards and in the meetings.

In OBR, it's foul by definition. In Fed, I'm likely going to foul it too. I'm not shooting an azimuth between the bags, then a reverse azimuth to see if the ball crossed an imaginary line. I've seen balls hit the mound, the rubber, a temporary mound, etc. and then go foul. Sometimes ya just gotta umpire.

The rubber is in front of the line from 1st to 3rd so its a fould ball, no azimuth needed. To the best of my ability to tell I'll use the HS rule in HS games and the pro rule in games under pro rules.

[Jocko]

Don't go there. Otherwise a ball that hits the front outside corner of the bag is fair by definition but a ball that bounds over that front corner but misses the back one (the base point) would be foul.

Yes and thats been discussed many times on the boards and in the meetings.

In OBR, it's foul by definition. In Fed, I'm likely going to foul it too. I'm not shooting an azimuth between the bags, then a reverse azimuth to see if the ball crossed an imaginary line. I've seen balls hit the mound, the rubber, a temporary mound, etc. and then go foul. Sometimes ya just gotta umpire.

The rubber is in front of the line from 1st to 3rd so its a fould ball, no azimuth needed. To the best of my ability to tell I'll use the HS rule in HS games and the pro rule in games under pro rules.

duh?

[Jocko]

The "imaginary line from first to third base" to determine if a batted ball has landed "beyond the bases" is an NFHS/high school baseball interpretation. I think that they are the only ones that use that definition.

For OBR-based rule sets, "beyond first or third base" means beyond the "diamond" formed by the baselines directly connecting each base.

correct answer from the guest. College is the same as OBR.

And the base is really a point in the ground so you could technically I guess make the case that it needs to go beyond the back edge of first or third to the middle of second. But Im not getting out my surveying equipment to see where the ball begins to back up.

The "imaginary line from first to third base" to determine if a batted ball has landed "beyond the bases" is an NFHS/high school baseball interpretation. I think that they are the only ones that use that definition.

For OBR-based rule sets, "beyond first or third base" means beyond the "diamond" formed by the baselines directly connecting each base.

correct answer from the guest. College is the same as OBR.

And the base is really a point in the ground so you could technically I guess make the case that it needs to go beyond the back edge of first or third to the middle of second. But Im not getting out my surveying equipment to see where the ball begins to back up.

so you're not pulling out your transit/compass and shooting azimuths either. Gotcha.

[noumpere]

In OBR, it's foul by definition. In Fed, I'm likely going to foul it too. I'm not shooting an azimuth between the bags, then a reverse azimuth to see if the ball crossed an imaginary line. I've seen balls hit the mound, the rubber, a temporary mound, etc. and then go foul. Sometimes ya just gotta umpire.

Okay -- maybe I misread either the OP or your post or both.

I have the OP as saying that the ball clearly (no azimuth taking needed) lands in the infield but beyond the 1b-3b line and then spins foul before first and before third.

I have you saying that this is foul in OBR and that you would likely call it foul in FED too.

If both of those are correct then Im saying you are wrong. It is foul in OBR and fair in FED.

If either of those is wrong then Im wrong in what I read and what I concluded and I apologize but I do have the rules right. lol.

I also have you saying that if the ball hits the mound or the rubber that you will call it foul because you cant tell if its beyond the 1b-3b line. If thats correct then you are right to call it foul but you can tell that its by definition in front of the line on a 90' diamond but some LL fields might be different and Rich can chime in here.

[Rich Ives]

In LL it's behind the 1-3 line but as LL uses OBR a ball hitting the rubber and going back to foul territory before being touched is foul.

(60' Diamond is 84'10" across - use Pythagoras or the 1-1-sqrt 2 rule - and the LL rubber is at 46 feet so it's back of the 1-3 line)

[Jimurray]

In LL it's behind the 1-3 line but as LL uses OBR a ball hitting the rubber and going back to foul territory before being touched is foul.

(60' Diamond is 84'10" across - use Pythagoras or the 1-1-sqrt 2 rule - and the LL rubber is at 46 feet so it's back of the 1-3 line)

60' Diamond is 84'10" HP to 2B but if you run the numbers it's not 84'10" across from 1B to 3B and the diamond does not have any 90 degree angles. But it's close enough to use those numbers.

[Rich Ives]

84'10.23372" if you make it a square.

Close enough.

And a 90' diamond has the same issue - just bigger numbers.

[Dragon29]

60' Diamond is 84'10" HP to 2B but if you run the numbers it's not 84'10" across from 1B to 3B and the diamond does not have any 90 degree angles. But it's close enough to use those numbers.

Really? Are you sure? Take another look and re-do your math. A baseball 'diamond' is a square rotated 45 degrees in one direction. The angle at each base is 90 degrees; the distance between the left outside corner of 3B & the right outside corner of 1B is 84'10" (& change)

Really.

[UmpJM]

I fully concur with Bretman with regard to the original question and, like Dragon29, I can't imagine what Jimurray is trying to suggest with his absurd assertion that a 60' diamond "...does not have any 90 degree angles..." or that the distance from HP to 2B is somehow "different" than the distance between 1B and 3B.

Now, if he's talking the BAGS which MARK the bases, then, he's got a point. Because the bags marking 1B and 3B, as well as the "slab" marking home are all entirely WITHIN the "diamond", while the bag marking 2B is only partially within the diamond.

JM

[Rich Ives]

It's not absurd - it's real. Read how to set up a diamond in 1.04. Although described as a square in the rules, the prescribed method for laying out the infield creates a rhombus.

From home plate measure 84'10" (127' 3 3/8" or 127' 3.375") to place second base - then measure 60' (90') from home and 2B to place 1B and 3B.

As the dimensions if truly square are 84' 10.23372" (127' 3.335") the infield is thus really slightly a rhombus and the 1-3 distance is different - and the angles are not 90 degrees.

[Jocko]

I let groundscrew worry with that stuff.

[mstaylor]

He is correct that the angles between bases are slightly off. First and Third are marked to the front of them, while second is marked by the center. Therefore the angles from first to second and from third to second are slightly acute.

[Jocko]

I'm waiting for BaseJester's diagrams and Scrounge's textbook response to geometric discussions.

[Jimurray]

He is correct that the angles between bases are slightly off. First and Third are mark to the front of them, while second is mark by the center. Therefore the angles from first to second and from third to second are slightly acute.

We are talking about basepoints and I should apologize to the OP for nerding it up like this.

Anyway you could end up with a square diamond with less than 60' distance to basepoints or Rich's rombus with 60' distance between basepoints depending on what you do after you do the 60' arcs and place 1B and 3B. Again, practically speaking, they are 60 or 90' squares.

But remind me to do another thread about improperly drawn foul lines when things get slow (Hint - in my neck of the woods, and I see it a lot, when they are drawn improperly they would actually be foul lines)

[Dragon29]

OK - I take your point; 2B is set back approx. 10.6" from where it would have to be to keep it in perfect alignment as far as the outside edges of all three bases are concerned, but I was really responding to the assertion that a baseball diamond is not a square (it is by definition - Rule 1.04) and that there are no 90 degree angles.

So, on a field set up by people who care and know how to use measuring devices (not always the case at local fields) the distance between HP & 2B is approx. 10.6" further than the distance between 1B & 3B

[Jimurray]

OK - I take your point; 2B is set back approx. 10.6" from where it would have to be to keep it in perfect alignment as far as the outside edges of all three bases are concerned, but I was really responding to the assertion that a baseball diamond is not a square (it is by definition - Rule 1.04) and that there are no 90 degree angles.

So, on a field set up by people who care and know how to use measuring devices (not always the case at local fields) the distance between HP & 2B is approx. 10.6" further than the distance between 1B & 3B

I was talking about the basepoints not the bags. What I am saying is that if you want a 60' square you need, as Rich says, an 80' 10.234" diagonal.

[Rich Ives]

He is correct that the angles between bases are slightly off. First and Third are mark to the front of them, while second is mark by the center. Therefore the angles from first to second and from third to second are slightly acute.

The base is the point on the ground that is marked by the base bags.