Balk or not?

[Guest John e.]

I am kind of confused as to when it is a balk when a pitcher fakes a throw to first base with a runner on first. Could someone explain: is it always a balk if you fake a throw to first as your initial move or is this ever acceptable and if so, under what scenarios?

[JaxRolo]

If his foot is on the rubber he can not feint to 1st.

If he steps back (disengages) he can feint (fake) to 1st.

[grayhawk]

If his foot is on the rubber he can not feint to 1st.

If he steps back (disengages) he can feint (fake) to 1st.

I will add that he can do a third to first move. When he steps off with his pivot foot on his fake to third, he is considered to have disengaged and can now fake a throw to first.

[Replacematt]

If his foot is on the rubber he can not feint to 1st.

If he steps back (disengages) he can feint (fake) to 1st.

I will add that he can do a third to first move. When he steps off with his pivot foot on his fake to third, he is considered to have disengaged and can now fake a throw to first.

Until next year.

[noumpere]

If his foot is on the rubber he can not feint to 1st.

If he steps back (disengages) he can feint (fake) to 1st.

And to add to this the jump turn and the jab step turn are not a way of disengaging so the pitcher needs to throw to first or its a balk.

[jjskitours]

On the feint to third is the pivot foot considered disengaged even though it lands in front of a line extended through the front of the rubber. Always thought the pivot foot needed to go behind the rubber to be considered disengaged. Is it different for this 3rd - 1st move? 

[BalkHawk]

8.05

If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when -

(b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw;

(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

Any time f1 is engaged and steps to 1b for a pickoff;

(a) f1 must complete the throw. i.e. f1 stops and doesn't throw or it slips out of his hand,

(b) f1 must not hesitate or interrupt his motion, and

© f3 must be in position to attempt a play on the runner, unless f1 throws over 1b instead of to the out-of-position f3.

Otherwise, f1 has 'faked to 1b.'

Both the 'jump move' and the 'jab step' are legal moves but f1 is considered engaged, thus he is prohibited from faking to 1b if he uses these moves.

When f1 is disengaged, he is like any other fielder, who can fake to 1b at any time.

[Rich Ives]

In OBR you cannot feint to 3rd unless you disengage first.

[jjskitours]

Sorry I should have noted I was referring to FED. Does the pivot foot have to be behind the rubber after the feint to 3rd base before a feint to 1st is legal. Or is the simple fact that

the pivot foot has come off the rubber and may be planted somewhere to the front or side sufficient to be considered disengaged. I know it is not disengaged on a straight pick to 1st unless

clearly behind the rubber.

[ricka56]

In Fed, the fake to 3B (without disengaging) is still legal. In Fed, F1 can even fake to 3B and then throw to 1B without disengaging on the initial fake to 3B. Refer to Fed case book play 6.2.4 C.

[jjskitours]

I guess I'm not phrasing my question properly. I know the fake to 3rd and throw to 1B without disengaging is legal. The QUESTION is when F1 fakes to 3rd and his pivot foot comes off the rubber, many times with what I'd call a jab step before throwing to 1st, has he legally disengaged since his pivot foot typically is not behind the rubber.

[UmpJM]

jj,

 

I wouldn't use that terminology (i.e., "legally disengaged") but the answer to your essential question is, Yes, he's legal - regardless of whether his pivot foot ends up in front of or behind the rubber.

 

Once the pitcher engages the rubber, he may do one of three things:

 

1. Legally disengage the rubber without making a pitch or pick-off move by placing his pivot foot behind the rubber.

 

2. Throw a pitch.

 

3. Make a pick-off move.

 

If he does #2 or #3, he has fulfilled his obligation, and is no longer considered "engaged". And his pivot foot can be anywhere - most commonly it will be in front of the rubber.

 

The pivot foot landing behind the rubber only matters in #1.

 

JM

[jjskitours]

With a pick off move using a jump turn or jab step where the pivot foot is clearly in front of the rubber, F1 has NOT considered to have disengaged from the rubber. If he feints to 1st it's a balk, if he throws out of play only 1 base. So I don't agree with your statement re #3

[UmpJM]

jj,

 

No, you don't disagree with my statement #3, you simply don't understand it.

 

I certainly concur that jump turn and jab step moves are considered moves "from the rubber", with the consequences you mention.

 

AFTER the move he is no longer considered "engaged".

 

JM

[noumpere]

I guess I'm not phrasing my question properly. I know the fake to 3rd and throw to 1B without disengaging is legal. The QUESTION is when F1 fakes to 3rd and his pivot foot comes off the rubber, many times with what I'd call a jab step before throwing to 1st, has he legally disengaged since his pivot foot typically is not behind the rubber.

It can go anywhere.  See case 6.5.1 (I think that's the correct reference)

[redrage]

so, if a pitcher makes a pick off move and fakes a throw to first after a jump turn, its a balk?

[Dash Riprock]

so, if a pitcher makes a pick off move and fakes a throw to first after a jump turn, its a balk?

Yes.  He wasn't disengaged until after the fake so he has balked. 

[redrage]

how does it work at third. if a right handed pitcher makes a move to third and the runner took off for home, the pitcher can stop his throw to third and throw home?

[Replacematt]

how does it work at third. if a right handed pitcher makes a move to third and the runner took off for home, the pitcher can stop his throw to third and throw home?

 

Depends on the rules. This is considered a fake to third, and is illegal in OBR. It's legal in NCAA and FED.