Foul Poles

[zoops]

A couple fields in our area have the foul poles installed about 10 feet beyond the outfield fences.  Obviously would be a tricky situation if a ball passed between them.  One of the coaches asked if I could point him to something in the rulebook to help him state his case to his board to get them to move the poles.  I'm not seeing much.  Just figured I would see how you guys would word such a statement.

[Velho]

From OBR definition of FAIR BALL: "A fair fly shall be judged according to the relative position of the ball and the foul line, including the foul pole, and not as to whether the fielder is on fair or foul territory at the time he touches the ball"

The purpose of the foul pole is mark the difference between fair and foul territory from the ground to the sky. It's a 3D demarcation. Being in line with the foul line but not where fair/foul territory change makes it a one dimensional tool. All but useless for anything close. It only helps with the more obvious calls.

 

Getting snarky, those aren't "foul poles" They are simply poles on the foul line extended.

 https://www.dictionary.com/browse/foul-pole

 https://www.baseball-almanac.com/dictionary-term.php?term=foul+pole

 

[Not sure how tall these foul poles are but feels like an occasion to find a contractor in the local baseball community and have an early morning field trip and then buy breaskfast]

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, zoops said:

A couple fields in our area have the foul poles installed about 10 feet beyond the outfield fences.  Obviously would be a tricky situation if a ball passed between them.  One of the coaches asked if I could point him to something in the rulebook to help him state his case to his board to get them to move the poles.  I'm not seeing much.  Just figured I would see how you guys would word such a statement.

Use these:

FAIR TERRITORY is that part of the playing field within, and including the first base and third base lines, from home base to the bottom of the playing field fence and perpendicularly upwards. All foul lines are in fair territory

FOUL TERRITORY is that part of the playing field outside the first and third base lines extended to the fence and perpendicularly upwards.

They indicate that fair/foul territory end at the fence...meaning, implicitly, that you must be able to determine foul/fair when the ball crosses the fence...not when it hits something ten feet past the fence.

 

After that, it's a discussion of practicality.

Having the pole ten feet beyond the fence doesn't provide a lot of value.  The ball passing to the foul side of the pole would give you limited indication to where the ball was when it crossed the fence.  Considering that 99.9999% of balls hit down the line that slice/hook are doing so towards foul territory, not to fair territory.  But not all hit balls slice/hook.  You also have a risk of a ball being blown fair, meaning the ball that hit the pole ten feet beyond the fence, though rare, may have been foul when it crossed the fence.

In short, having the poles ten feet past the fence is about as useful as having a drunk spectator stand ten feet past the fence and pointing foul/fair.  Those fields don't have foul poles...they're just poles.  Put a platform on top of them so birds nest there instead of in the lights.

 

[BrainFreeze]

I've umpired games before with no outfield fence.  

Could a situation be possible where the batter hits the ball so hard and so far that despite the ball hooking foul and landing on foul ground that it would have obviously been a home run but for the fact that there was no outfield fence?  

I'm imagining a moon-shot type of fly ball hit to the right of F7 and traveling 350-400 feet in the air *before* curving foul....

 

[noumpere]

If there's not fence and no "home run line" (or similar ground rule) then the foul lines extend to perpetuity and what you describe is a foul ball.

[Replacematt]

7 hours ago, noumpere said:

If there's not fence and no "home run line" (or similar ground rule) then the foul lines extend to perpetuity and what you describe is a foul ball.

One-quarter of the world is in fair territory, and three-quarters of it is foul.

[stevis]

2 hours ago, Replacematt said:

One-quarter of the world is in fair territory, and three-quarters of it is foul.

[jimurrayalterego]

4 hours ago, Replacematt said:

One-quarter of the world is in fair territory, and three-quarters of it is foul.

Is the foul line a rhumb line or a great circle?

[Replacematt]

19 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Is the foul line a rhumb line or a great circle?

So, we are going to ignore that the earth is not a true sphere and is an oblate spheroid.

At least one foul line is not a great circle. Neither foul line is a rhumb line unless one is directly on the Equator.

The more I think about this, both would be great circles if one is on the Equator. 

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, Replacematt said:

So, we are going to ignore that the earth is not a true sphere and is an oblate spheroid.

At least one foul line is not a great circle. Neither foul line is a rhumb line unless one is directly on the Equator.

The more I think about this, both would be great circles if one is on the Equator. 

or if home plate is at either pole.

[dumbdumb]

there can be situations where the rule of imaginary lines equals imaginary arguments. shut an argument down pronto. and when that city/etc has trouble eyeballing home to first, one just might want to play the line up to the base at which point the base takes over, and i am talking places with no crew on site to make them redo the line, if that thought even crosses your mind.

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

or if home plate is at either pole.

No matter where HP is you can construct 2 90 degree great circle foul lines. But I think the practical application uses a rhumb line with a fixed azimuth from HP. Negligible difference from HP to 320'. 

[BigBlue4u]

How about this?  "Hey coach, it looked fair to me, so it's a fair ball."  Or, "Hey coach, it looked foul to me so it's a foul ball."  Take your choice.

[SeeingEyeDog]

It could be worse...imagine a field where the poles are placed IN FRONT OF the fence...I have 3 of those in my market...good times...

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

Past the fence?  Those aren't foul poles, somebody forgot to finish the goal posts.

[MadMax]

On 4/26/2025 at 3:42 PM, BigBlue4u said:

How about this?  "Hey coach, it looked fair to me, so it's a fair ball."  Or, "Hey coach, it looked foul to me so it's a foul ball."  Take your choice.

It never gets that far. 

If 👆🏼 these guys are talking infinite lines into perpetuity… we might as well bring chairs 🪑 to the plate meeting, cuz these ground rules… are going to take awhile. 

[beerguy55]

On 4/25/2025 at 9:04 AM, BrainFreeze said:

I've umpired games before with no outfield fence.  

Could a situation be possible where the batter hits the ball so hard and so far that despite the ball hooking foul and landing on foul ground that it would have obviously been a home run but for the fact that there was no outfield fence?  

I'm imagining a moon-shot type of fly ball hit to the right of F7 and traveling 350-400 feet in the air *before* curving foul....

 

In spite of all the great theoretical situations laid out, practically speaking there will be a "home run" "fence" eventually...eventually there will be a point where the ball/field is out of play.  That could be someone's back yard 800 feet from home plate...or it could be a roadway or alley or sidewalk easement.  No field is infinite in size (but some are HUUUUGE).  At some point the property that is associated with the field will become someone else's property.  The foul lines extend to that point.