Safety bag at first base

[frankfj]

We are a senior slow pitch league and for safety reasons we have two bags at first base. The runner is required to run to the orange bag located in foul territory. In this case I called the runner out when he ran to the white bag in fair territory. The batter hit a weak ground ball down the third base line, the fielder was unable to make a throw to first, which the runner was unaware of due to the play being behind him. The runner hit the white bag and made no attempt to advance to second base. The argument against my call was the runner should be ruled safe because no throw was made. My judgement is that runner is in no position to know if a play is imminent, and for safety reasons is required to hit the orange bag. Safety first--What say you

[834k3r]

I've used the double-bag at first before (some baseball fields I work have the orange bag) and the rule for baseball is runner can go to either the orange or white base, but the defense must use the white base.

I'll admit I have no knowledge of your local rules, but I would have ruled the runner safe barring any local league rule that would supersede that.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, frankfj said:

We are a senior slow pitch league and for safety reasons we have two bags at first base. The runner is required to run to the orange bag located in foul territory. In this case I called the runner out when he ran to the white bag in fair territory. The batter hit a weak ground ball down the third base line, the fielder was unable to make a throw to first, which the runner was unaware of due to the play being behind him. The runner hit the white bag and made no attempt to advance to second base. The argument against my call was the runner should be ruled safe because no throw was made. My judgement is that runner is in no position to know if a play is imminent, and for safety reasons is required to hit the orange bag. Safety first--What say you

What your position boils down to is that batter-runner initially touches white base=batter-runner is automatically out.

I find that a very hard argument to support.

Counterpoint: batter-runner trips over the foul line (it is senior slowpitch, after all) and faceplants on the white bag, then rolls over into the orange one. Still an automatic out? 

[Coach Carl]

2 hours ago, frankfj said:

We are a senior slow pitch league and for safety reasons we have two bags at first base. The runner is required to run to the orange bag located in foul territory. In this case I called the runner out when he ran to the white bag in fair territory. The batter hit a weak ground ball down the third base line, the fielder was unable to make a throw to first, which the runner was unaware of due to the play being behind him. The runner hit the white bag and made no attempt to advance to second base. The argument against my call was the runner should be ruled safe because no throw was made. My judgement is that runner is in no position to know if a play is imminent, and for safety reasons is required to hit the orange bag. Safety first--What say you

Where was the foot of F3?  If F3 had stepped off the bag then the the runner would have visual evidence in front of him that the third baseman gave up on the play. 

Regardless, if your ruleset requires a play that is irrelevant.  

A play (or attempted play) requires a legitimate effort to retire a runner:  tag attempt, running toward a base or runner to make a tag, throwing the ball to another player in an attempt to retire a runner.   None of those conditions existed in your sitch.

[frankfj]

Of course not!   That scenario doesn't apply, Just like an incidental contact situation between runner and defensive player.

[grayhawk]

I have no experience with a double 1st base, but in your scenario in the new NCAA baseball rule, the runner is not required to use the colored base if there is no play. He would be safe.

Do slow pitch softball rules not address this scenario?

[JonnyCat]

As a veteran of slow pitch softball for many years, and still currently playing (poorly, I might add), we use USSSA rules and a double first base.

Most of the Rec league softball that I'm aware of use USSSA rules. Under this rule-set, you need a play on the runner for them to be required to use the orange base. No play, no violation. The relevant rule is as follows:

Sec. 7. THE BASES other than the home plate shall be 15 inches square and not more than 3 inches high. They shall be made of canvas bags, plastic or other suitable materials filled with soft padding. They shall be WHITE, RED or ORANGE in color. All BASES must be securely fastened at their designated places. NOTE: A safety base is optional. The safety base shall be 15 inches by 30 inches and not more than 3 inches high. The safety base should be positioned such that the white portion is located where first base would normally be (in fair territory) and the colored portion (red or orange) should be in foul territory. Any batted ball hitting the white portion should be fair and any ball hitting the red or orange portion should be foul. On the initial throw to first base from the infield or outfield, the batter-runner MUST TOUCH the red or orange portion of the base but not the white. If legally appealed by the defense during a live ball situation, the runner will be called out. The defensive player MUST always touch the white portion. This rule is in effect only on the initial play at first base. This does not include:

1. Returning to the base after over running,

2. Running on a base hit to the outfield (runner may touch the red or white part) or

3. Re-tag to advance on a fly ball.

4. On any attempt to force the batter runner out at first base on the initial throw that pulls the defense off of first base into foul ground, the defense and the batter may use either the white or colored portion of the base.

EFFECT: If the base runner uses the orange portion at any time after the first attempt at first base and is not in contact with the white portion, then he is considered off the base.

Depends on the rule-set your league is using, but I'm inclined to believe that you need a play at 1B in order to require the runner to use the orange bag.

The best thing to do is find out what rule-set you are using, and then look up the relevant citation.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

@JonnyCat so, if there's no play at 1B and the B-R tries for the white bag and is trying to advance to 2B and there is contact with a fielder, do we then have obstruction? Let's presume if the B-R had used the orange bag there would have been no contact.

~Dawg

[beerguy55]

As stated above, I've seen this ruled in many ways, and it comes down to you needing to know what ruleset you're using, or what specific by-laws your league/tourney has implemented.

My first instinct, based on what I have most commonly seen over the years, your ruling is wrong.

I have seen all the following:

• Runner can touch either base ALWAYS (fielder MUST touch white)
• Runner must touch orange, fielder white, when there's a play*
• Runner must touch orange, fielder white, whether there's a play or not, unless rounding to second.
• Runner may touch part of white as long as long as he has touched the orange*
• Runner may NOT touch part of white, even if he is touching orange
• Fielder may touch part of the orange, as long as he is touching white*
• Fielder may NOT touch part of orange, even if he is touching white
• Fielder can touch orange on throws from foul side of first base line...runner must switch to white.
• Orange part of base "disappears" once touched, returning runner only safe on white*
• Both parts of bag remain live even after touched, for the purposes of B/R returning to first base on that play.
• On tag up appeal play fielder may touch either bag
• On tag up appeal play fielder must touch white*
• On tag up appeal play runner may touch either bag
• On tag up appeal play runner must touch white*

*most common configs I've seen

[The Man in Blue]

As @beerguy55 illustrated masterfully, you need to know what your rulebook says.  Too many codes have introduced too many different variables, many of which are specific to them.

IMO, this is what has caused most of the reluctance to use of the double bag.  It is a simple concept with lots of upside, but it has been artificially complicated.

[JonnyCat]

4 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@JonnyCat so, if there's no play at 1B and the B-R tries for the white bag and is trying to advance to 2B and there is contact with a fielder, do we then have obstruction? Let's presume if the B-R had used the orange bag there would have been no contact.

~Dawg

If there is no play on the BR, then he is legal to use the white base (or the orange base for that matter) when advancing. Either way, the regular rules for OBS apply. The fielder must not obstruct the runner regardless of which base the BR uses.

[MadMax]

On 1/29/2025 at 9:54 PM, The Man in Blue said:

It is a simple concept with lots of upside, but it has been artificially complicated.

… and it is complicated by restrictions and penalties, instead of latitude… which ya’d think is what a double-base is literally, physically, metaphorically, and figuratively creating. 
Automatic out?? For this?? What would have been the call had the BR stepped over both bags, without touching either one? 

Madness. 

[The Man in Blue]

@MadMax . . . upon a proper appeal, the penalty should obviously be calling two outs since the runner missed two bags.  

[The Man in Blue]

Didn't want to create a new thread for this, so I'm dropping it here.

We mentioned that orgs all feel the need to put their own stamp on a simple rule, which then screws it up.

I know we have some knowledgeable LL umpires here, but I'm not sure if that extends to the softball side. Little League Softball World Series . . . 

 

 

Curious about a LL opinion on this.  It seems wrong in ALL codes to me.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

I know we have some knowledgeable LL umpires here, but I'm not sure if that extends to the softball side. Little League Softball World Series . . . 

Personally, I have OBS on F3 here. She wasn't letting BR get back to the white bag. I certainly don't have an out.

I discussed this with someone that did a Softball JR WS and does HS softball locally, he had the same.

For baseball, you didn't see an out during regions (which newly had the double first base) and none during the WS so far (that I'm aware of, been off line the last few days but I assume you'd have used that example if it had happened).

Baseball 12s regions and WS having a higher bar for selecting umpires (how it's set is debatable but it's different than other divisions/levels) and you generally see more experience in judgment. My understanding is that baseball Region & WS umps mentality is to consciously give leeway to the offense with the double bag.

Some interesting baseball double bag moments from Regions below.

 

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I know we have some knowledgeable LL umpires here, but I'm not sure if that extends to the softball side. Little League Softball World Series . . . 

I'd have to see a specific rule (at which point I would declare the rule makers bereft of brain function), but this just looks like an umpire that doesn't understand the rule...spirit or letter.  The only other explanation I can think of is with the ball hit to the outfield he braincramped and thought BR had made a turn to second (as one normally does on hits to the outfield).

She overran first - she's allowed to return to first, and except for a one or two second diversion, caused by F3, she did so.  If she'd be touching only the orange when the pitcher had the ball on the rubber then he'd have a legitimate out.

[Velho]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I'd have to see a specific rule

Current LL RIM for reference. I expect (hope) with the next RIM we'll get more around the double-bag.

[Umpy]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

She overran first - she's allowed to return to first, and except for a one or two second diversion, caused by F3, she did so.  If she'd be touching only the orange when the pitcher had the ball on the rubber then he'd have a legitimate out.

As a strict literallist, she stopped and stood on the orange base for a second, which means she was no longer returning "immediately to the base".  I would be too chicken to call the Out though.

 

I was conscripted into umpiring Little League Softball district and state tournaments this year (I had at the time 3 games of Softball experience, but hundreds of Little League baseball, so they figured I was qualified enough to do Bases) and in the brief "here's how to be a softball umpire" briefings I got from several former Softball LLWS umpires there was a LOT of emphasis put on the not standing on the Orange base when the pitcher has the ball.  It definitely got in my head overthinking about the orange base not being safe except in your first time past.  I don't know if its something pushed a lot in LL Softball training, but the trained guys sure pushed it a lot on me.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

Current LL RIM for reference. I expect (hope) with the next RIM we'll get more around the double-bag.

There's nothing here to support the ump's call, by rule.  Unless he somehow imagined that she touched white instead of orange the first time (she did not) and considers this an appeal.

 

2 hours ago, Umpy said:

As a strict literallist, she stopped and stood on the orange base for a second, which means she was no longer returning "immediately to the base".  I would be too chicken to call the Out though.

A one or two second delay has never been close to the standard here, let alone the fact that it's F3 that caused the delay.  And F3 still had the ball by the time BR re-engaged the white, so the pitcher having the ball doesn't enter into it either.

This is simply a bad call, and it's a bad look, and there's no excuse for it, beyond either attitude or ineptitude.

I don't care if these guys are volunteering for the honor of umping the LLWS...they're still actual umpires - it's not like LL is grabbing random people from the stands or the street to officiate these games.  This umpire made this call not because he's a volunteer, but because he's bad at his job.

 

[Velho]

50 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

This is simply a bad call, and it's a bad look, and there's no excuse for it, beyond either attitude or ineptitude.

Some context: double bag wasn't discussed much last time I went to LL Regional school. The mantra I always hear from people I talk to is the "the orange base disappears after the initial play".

 LL RIM somewhat supports that: 

(c) Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the batter-runner must use the colored (orange or green) section on their first attempt to tag first base.

NOTE: On extra-base hits or other balls hit to the outfield when there is no chance for a play to be made at the double first base, the batter-runner may touch either the white or colored (orange or green) section of the base. Should the batter-runner reach and go beyond first base, he/ she may only return to the white section of the base."

 

I think TPTB don't want OP as an out and I believe that's why you clearly see it applied differently in the second video I posted. I don't know how much it was discussed with Softball regionals but I'm guessing it was discussed with baseball regionals and have high confidence it was discussed with Williamsport umpires.

Further, baseball regionals have a higher bar to get assigned (imo simply because they get much more attention).

[Aging_Arbiter]

On 8/18/2025 at 4:47 PM, Velho said:

Should the batter-runner reach and go beyond first base, he/ she may only return to the white section of the base."

look at it this way......once they get there, the safety bag disappears