Question Regarding Straddling the Rubber Before Engaging

[MSB256]

We play USSSA then OBR. In the fall, the umps are being lenient regarding balks. I understand this because it’s 10U and kids are learning how to pitch while also learning to deal with base runners leading off, etc. But in a game where we’re down runs, I feel like there has to be a point where we get awarded the base. Well, it came up that they are repeatedly balking and the umpire said we’d be here all night (meaning if we call every ball). I made a comment that we were not balking as much as them. So he basically goes the ok, you want it you got it route. 

My pitchers are taught to straddle the rubber, then engage. Well, while straddling the rubber, pitcher touches ball to glove then separates. Ump calls balk. I objected that he’s not on the rubber. He says you wanted it. Later my assistant asks about it and ump said pitcher was touching the back of the rubber. I have never in my life seen that called. And I don’t believe he could see that from behind plate. If he could, is this covered in the rule book?

He also insinuated a pitcher could simply throw to third which I know to be incorrect. Pitcher has to step off or step toward third in order to pick off to third. He can’t simply stand flat footed in the stretch and throw over there with a similar motion as he would if he had stepped off. 
 

Appreciate any input.

[Richvee]

19 minutes ago, MSB256 said:

But in a game where we’re down runs, I feel like there has to be a point where we get awarded the base

 

22 minutes ago, MSB256 said:

In the fall, the umps are being lenient regarding balks. I understand this because it’s 10U and kids are learning how to pitch while also learning to deal with base runners leading off,

So the game should be called differently once your team is losing? 
It’s fall ball. The kids are learning. You said so yourself. Score is irrelevant to the way the game is officiated. 

You’re correct about pick offs to 3rd. (Any base for that matter). Pitcher must step towards the base or disengage. 

[Velho]

40 minutes ago, MSB256 said:

10U

Only one thing matters: chocolate or vanilla?

[MSB256]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

Only one thing matters: chocolate or vanilla?

I get your point but if that’s case why are we leading off, stealing, etc? 

[MSB256]

14 minutes ago, Richvee said:

 

So the game should be called differently once your team is losing? 
It’s fall ball. The kids are learning. You said so yourself. Score is irrelevant to the way the game is officiated. 

You’re correct about pick offs to 3rd. (Any base for that matter). Pitcher must step towards the base or disengage. 

I think we can shoot for a balance between lenient and fair. If they’ve got 10 balks to our two and we lose, is that fair to my kids? And if it’s all for developmental purposes, let’s stop the game and explain why what they’re doing isn’t legal. 
 

Any comment on if the rule book addresses a pitcher straddling the rubber and touching the back of the rubber with his back foot?

[Velho]

1 hour ago, MSB256 said:

I get your point but if that’s case why are we leading off, stealing, etc? 

At 10U, I think those are very good questions to ask. Why are you doing those things? I'll skip ranting about how they are detrimental to player and youth development.

I'm not trying to be an ass but use these questions to make a point. I am keen on adult intentionality and self awareness in youth sports 108baseballstories.com/parents

 

58 minutes ago, MSB256 said:

And if it’s all for developmental purposes, let’s stop the game and explain why what they’re doing isn’t legal. 

I'm all in on this - even in the last inning of a 10U "championship".

 

58 minutes ago, MSB256 said:

Any comment on if the rule book addresses a pitcher straddling the rubber and touching the back of the rubber with his back foot?

I hear you, but on the rubber is on the rubber. This is the Pandora's box you open once you go to open bases (as opposed to closed bases in Little League).

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, MSB256 said:

I get your point but if that’s case why are we leading off, stealing, etc? 

Great question. 

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, MSB256 said:

I get your point but if that’s case why are we leading off, stealing, etc? 

I don't know why. Why are we so serious about youth sports at that age? Why do we insist on applying adult rules on kids?

Is it fun to watch those games? Is it fun for the kids? Or is it for the adults.

10u. There shouldn't be lead-offs. Rules should be tailored for the appropriate age and skill level.

This could all be avoided if the adults acted like adults, and didn't live vicariously though the children. Lest I digress.

To answer your original question. It's a balk if the umpire calls it. To be fair, you usually aren't going to get the most experienced or quality umpires for 10u. That's just the way it is. NCAA umpires aren't clamoring to work 10u in the off-season.

To be fair, you kind of opened that can of worms by questioning, most likely an inexperienced umpire. Perhaps he didn't handle it as well as he should have. Yes, you are correct, the umpire made some mistakes. Probably will continue to do so.

Ask yourself, what can you do to close that circle? I've seen too many coaches and parents dwell unnecessarily on the umpires, and in turn, reflects the negativity on to the kids. I've seen other coaches and parents handle it well, keep a positive attitude, and remember to keep it fun for the kids. If you keep it fun, they will continue to play. The number one reason kids drop out of youth sports is because they aren't having fun. And most often, not always, it's the adults that don't make it fun for the kids.

I'm not saying you've done any of that, just food for thought. I appreciate you coming on here to get some feedback. 

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, MSB256 said:

If they’ve got 10 balks to our two and we lose, is that fair to my kids?

I’m confused. You say the umpire was being lenient. So he wasn’t calling these balks?  But you’re counting how many times each pitcher is balking? And now you’re losing and complaining to the umpire that you want the balks called because “they’re balking more than my kids”? Think about what others have politely posted. I’m going to refrain from further comment. 

[MSB256]

20 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I’m confused. You say the umpire was being lenient. So he wasn’t calling these balks?  But you’re counting how many times each pitcher is balking? And now you’re losing and complaining to the umpire that you want the balks called because “they’re balking more than my kids”? Think about what others have politely posted. I’m going to refrain from further comment. 

It’s sometimes hard to convey the point through written words, similar to a text message or email where you can’t hear someone’s tone or inflection. I never said I wanted the balks called. But I did want fairness for my kids and I’m not sure how to get that when the rules are being made grey. Totally fine with refraint as you’ve mostly picked me apart instead of addressing the question, but thanks for the third base pick confirmation. 

 

[MSB256]

54 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

I don't know why. Why are we so serious about youth sports at that age? Why do we insist on applying adult rules on kids?

Is it fun to watch those games? Is it fun for the kids? Or is it for the adults.

10u. There shouldn't be lead-offs. Rules should be tailored for the appropriate age and skill level.

This could all be avoided if the adults acted like adults, and didn't live vicariously though the children. Lest I digress.

To answer your original question. It's a balk if the umpire calls it. To be fair, you usually aren't going to get the most experienced or quality umpires for 10u. That's just the way it is. NCAA umpires aren't clamoring to work 10u in the off-season.

To be fair, you kind of opened that can of worms by questioning, most likely an inexperienced umpire. Perhaps he didn't handle it as well as he should have. Yes, you are correct, the umpire made some mistakes. Probably will continue to do so.

Ask yourself, what can you do to close that circle? I've seen too many coaches and parents dwell unnecessarily on the umpires, and in turn, reflects the negativity on to the kids. I've seen other coaches and parents handle it well, keep a positive attitude, and remember to keep it fun for the kids. If you keep it fun, they will continue to play. The number one reason kids drop out of youth sports is because they aren't having fun. And most often, not always, it's the adults that don't make it fun for the kids.

I'm not saying you've done any of that, just food for thought. I appreciate you coming on here to get some feedback. 

I appreciate the thoughtful comment!

The parks in our league voted on “real baseball” vs little league (no leading off). One camp’s opinion is they have to learn, they might as well learn now and holding the runner is part of pitching. That camp won the vote. It’s not how I grew up playing and I could make the case to let them learn to pitch without having to worry about the runner but again, it was voted on and the lead off camp won the vote. 

I think one can also make the case it also puts more on the umpires, who as you eluded to aren’t ncaa umpires, to have to call real baseball rules for kids who are learning this part of the game.

My ultimate point I suppose is I think calling a balk on a pitcher who was straddling the rubber was a reach to prove a point. I’m not convinced he could see whether or not his cleat was touching the back of the rubber from behind the plate,  but if it was, what rule reference would cover that? Perhaps touching the back of the rubber is no different than standing on it might be the answer? 

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

@MSB256, so, you're coming onto an UMPIRE FORUM to discuss what I think we can all agree is really A LEAGUE ADMINISTRATION question. You have gotten some excellent, professional and polite feedback here (as we always provide...) and I encourage you to re-read ALL OF IT again.

Umpires are funny human beings. We don't like gray areas. Something inside the fences either is...or isn't. A pitch is either a ball or a strike. The runner is either safe or out. The runner either hindered or impeded the fielder...or he didn't.

The pitcher either balked...or they delivered the pitch legally. I don't know what your overall experiences are with youth baseball but, it's very common at the 10U level to play with a balk warning (or even two...) especially when we're all playing fall ball which as you said is more developmental baseball than competitive baseball. Again, from the umpires' collective position (the entirety of the Blue Brotherhood...) either the 10U league you are referencing WANTS balks called to the OBR rule, or they want it called to a modification which would include warnings but, it all has to be specified. If you do not specify the modifications at the plate meeting, the umpire is going to default to the written rules. Hell, even if your league rule was no warnings, call all the balks? If one or both managers came to me at the plate meeting and said, "Look, we're struggling with balks..." or "Look, my best arms are not here today and I am pitching a lot of kids who don't understand balks yet..." and the coaches agree to warnings even though that's "not the league rule"? For 10U? In the fall? Absolutely, coaches...we are happy to accommodate you and your players at this age level this time of the year.

Also, keep in mind that the calling or not calling of balks is UMPIRE JUDGEMENT. It's not appropriate by rule for coaches or players to dispute umpire judgement. If you have a question about a balk or non-balk situation that you are not in agreement with the umpire about, rather than shouting from the dugout about it...ask for time, wait for time to be granted and then approach the umpire calmly and ask, "Blue, can you please help me understand why that is or is not a balk, please?" This way you are not overtly challenging the umpire's judgement or decision. You are seeking knowledge to help you better understand why the umpire is or is not making a call which theoretically, you can then take back to players and explain to them which helps all of us finish the game in a timely fashion.

Yes, they need to learn balks. Yes, they need to learn how to hold runners. They can learn that at practice. At this level, game day is for the players. Setup a pitching station at practice and work with them on "mound discipline". When umpires are learning about balks, we talk more about what a pitcher CAN LEGALLY do while on the mound, on the rubber and off the rubber rather than talking about "This is a balk..." or "That is a balk..." To have fun and be with their teammates. Then after the game, we go for artisanal tacos and organic ice-cream.

TL;DR...work out the balk rules, warnings for balks with your league administration. They can then advise the umpires working your games what modifications the league has decided upon.

Brothers, just a friendly reminder, while we are not coaches we are PART of player development. They learn the game both passively and actively from the umpires. If you have a balk (modified rules or otherwise...) feel free to ask the pitcher, "Do you know what you did?" If they say yes, there is nothing more for us to say or do. If they say, "No..." or give you body language that suggests they are a deer in the headlights, feel free to BRIEFLY explain what they did. "You have to come to discernable stop when you come set..." or "You did not disengage from the rubber legally..." or "You came set more than once..." or whatever they did that made them balk. We are not there to conduct a rules clinic on balks or anything else. If the coach comes out, engage him briefly as well.

~Dawg  

[beerguy55]

10 hours ago, MSB256 said:

I think we can shoot for a balance between lenient and fair. If they’ve got 10 balks to our two and we lose, is that fair to my kids? And if it’s all for developmental purposes, let’s stop the game and explain why what they’re doing isn’t legal. 
 

Any comment on if the rule book addresses a pitcher straddling the rubber and touching the back of the rubber with his back foot?

So I'm going to offer a coach's perspective, one who's coached from clinics for 6-year olds, to rec ball, to club ball in the gold medal game of the national championships, to international competition. I've made my mistakes and had my successes.  So, please take it from me...

Stop.

You opened up this can of worms by complaining to an umpire in a 10U game about the most difficult call a developing umpire needs to learn.  Maybe he's being petty, but you brought it on.

Stop.

If your pitcher gets called for a balk, it's an opportunity to learn.  Who cares if the other pitcher is being called or not.  Take the learning approach when your players are called, and stop worrying about the other team's players.

Any time your opponent's pitcher is not called for a balk is an opportunity for your player to try to steal a base...or learn how to go first to third on a single.  Or for a batter to advance a runner, or get an RBI.  When your players get free rides to second, third and home they learn nothing.

At this level, I don't want to see wild pitches, walks or balks by the other team.  Those teach my batters and baserunners nothing.

Beyond that, most of what you want your kids to learn should be done in a practice setting, where you can control the variables, and ensure repetition.  Come game time, all the kids can really do, is do.  Then, take notes, and address learnings at the next practice.  Rinse and repeat.

To your other question - touching the rubber is touching the rubber.

[MSB256]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

So I'm going to offer a coach's perspective, one who's coached from clinics for 6-year olds, to rec ball, to club ball in the gold medal game of the national championships, to international competition. I've made my mistakes and had my successes.  So, please take it from me...

Stop.

You opened up this can of worms by complaining to an umpire in a 10U game about the most difficult call a developing umpire needs to learn.  Maybe he's being petty, but you brought it on.

Stop.

If your pitcher gets called for a balk, it's an opportunity to learn.  Who cares if the other pitcher is being called or not.  Take the learning approach when your players are called, and stop worrying about the other team's players.

Any time your opponent's pitcher is not called for a balk is an opportunity for your player to try to steal a base...or learn how to go first to third on a single.  Or for a batter to advance a runner, or get an RBI.  When your players get free rides to second, third and home they learn nothing.

At this level, I don't want to see wild pitches, walks or balks by the other team.  Those teach my batters and baserunners nothing.

Beyond that, most of what you want your kids to learn should be done in a practice setting, where you can control the variables, and ensure repetition.  Come game time, all the kids can really do, is do.  Then, take notes, and address learnings at the next practice.  Rinse and repeat.

To your other question - touching the rubber is touching the rubber.

Heard and fair points. I appreciate that. Thank you.

[MSB256]

2 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@MSB256, so, you're coming onto an UMPIRE FORUM to discuss what I think we can all agree is really A LEAGUE ADMINISTRATION question. You have gotten some excellent, professional and polite feedback here (as we always provide...) and I encourage you to re-read ALL OF IT again.

Umpires are funny human beings. We don't like gray areas. Something inside the fences either is...or isn't. A pitch is either a ball or a strike. The runner is either safe or out. The runner either hindered or impeded the fielder...or he didn't.

The pitcher either balked...or they delivered the pitch legally. I don't know what your overall experiences are with youth baseball but, it's very common at the 10U level to play with a balk warning (or even two...) especially when we're all playing fall ball which as you said is more developmental baseball than competitive baseball. Again, from the umpires' collective position (the entirety of the Blue Brotherhood...) either the 10U league you are referencing WANTS balks called to the OBR rule, or they want it called to a modification which would include warnings but, it all has to be specified. If you do not specify the modifications at the plate meeting, the umpire is going to default to the written rules. Hell, even if your league rule was no warnings, call all the balks? If one or both managers came to me at the plate meeting and said, "Look, we're struggling with balks..." or "Look, my best arms are not here today and I am pitching a lot of kids who don't understand balks yet..." and the coaches agree to warnings even though that's "not the league rule"? For 10U? In the fall? Absolutely, coaches...we are happy to accommodate you and your players at this age level this time of the year.

Also, keep in mind that the calling or not calling of balks is UMPIRE JUDGEMENT. It's not appropriate by rule for coaches or players to dispute umpire judgement. If you have a question about a balk or non-balk situation that you are not in agreement with the umpire about, rather than shouting from the dugout about it...ask for time, wait for time to be granted and then approach the umpire calmly and ask, "Blue, can you please help me understand why that is or is not a balk, please?" This way you are not overtly challenging the umpire's judgement or decision. You are seeking knowledge to help you better understand why the umpire is or is not making a call which theoretically, you can then take back to players and explain to them which helps all of us finish the game in a timely fashion.

Yes, they need to learn balks. Yes, they need to learn how to hold runners. They can learn that at practice. At this level, game day is for the players. Setup a pitching station at practice and work with them on "mound discipline". When umpires are learning about balks, we talk more about what a pitcher CAN LEGALLY do while on the mound, on the rubber and off the rubber rather than talking about "This is a balk..." or "That is a balk..." To have fun and be with their teammates. Then after the game, we go for artisanal tacos and organic ice-cream.

TL;DR...work out the balk rules, warnings for balks with your league administration. They can then advise the umpires working your games what modifications the league has decided upon.

Brothers, just a friendly reminder, while we are not coaches we are PART of player development. They learn the game both passively and actively from the umpires. If you have a balk (modified rules or otherwise...) feel free to ask the pitcher, "Do you know what you did?" If they say yes, there is nothing more for us to say or do. If they say, "No..." or give you body language that suggests they are a deer in the headlights, feel free to BRIEFLY explain what they did. "You have to come to discernable stop when you come set..." or "You did not disengage from the rubber legally..." or "You came set more than once..." or whatever they did that made them balk. We are not there to conduct a rules clinic on balks or anything else. If the coach comes out, engage him briefly as well.

~Dawg  

Thanks for the feedback. I think the gray is the frustrating part. But I agree it’s an administrative issue and the best thing I can probably do as others have eluded to is focus on my pitchers learning, my base runners advancing, regardless of what their pitcher does or doesn’t do. I appreciate the dialogue and the advice. 

[JonnyCat]

9 hours ago, MSB256 said:

The parks in our league voted on “real baseball” vs little league (no leading off).

I always loved that coming out from league board members or coaches. I've heard the term "real baseball" too many times to count. Is it real baseball when your players can barely tie their shoes? Is it real baseball when your kids can barely catch, throw, pitch, and hit the ball? Never understood that line of thinking.

I first heard that term from a coach many years ago when I first started coaching. Get this...........from another Tee Ball coach! Actually said we need to be teaching these kids "real baseball" in TEE-BALL! Coach didn't like the rule mods I was proposing. Like everyone bats and has fun. The league rules actually had 6 runs, or 3 outs per inning, in F*#King Tee Ball! (The board took my suggestions and did modify the rules. I later became league president for 5 years and made many other significant changes and improvements to the league that are in place to this day.)

The adults are usually the problem.

10 hours ago, MSB256 said:

My ultimate point I suppose is I think calling a balk on a pitcher who was straddling the rubber was a reach to prove a point. I’m not convinced he could see whether or not his cleat was touching the back of the rubber from behind the plate,  but if it was, what rule reference would cover that? Perhaps touching the back of the rubber is no different than standing on it might be the answer? 

Usually at this level, if you're going to call balks, we call them if they are what's called "elephant balks." The ones that are so obvious, everyone in the stands can see them. We normally wouldn't call technical balks at this level. 

Yes , the umpire perhaps got butt hurt over your comments and tried to prove a point. I think @beerguy55 has some great points and suggestions moving forward.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

 

To your other question - touching the rubber is touching the rubber.

Touching the rubber may not be engaged with the rubber. It happens when the pitcher addresses the rubber to get in the windup or set and we don't consider them engaged until we judge them to be "comfortable". As to straddling, I never have focused on the gap between the pivot foot and the rubber if the pitcher has stepped off or is in the process of engaging. 

[grayhawk]

Seems to me that a fall ball league, at 10U, is making a huge mistake introducing these kids to open bases. Are some 10U kids absolutely ready for it? Yes, but those are the exceptional kids that are playing on real travel ball teams, in tournaments. But if we are talking a rec league, it's way more than they are ready for. What's the hurry in having them play "real baseball" anyway? I'd rather the pitcher be working on throwing it over the plate than what he can/can't do trying to hold a runner. Nope. Get the pitchers throwing strikes, the batters learning the zone and putting the bat to the ball, and the fielders learning how to glove the ball and throw the ball. There is SO MUCH fun to be had in learning just those basic skills that adding more spice to the mix is unnecessary. Kids don't like spicy food anyway!

[MSB256]

Appreciate the feedback and dialogue here. I love this game, still play over 40, and coach. I geek out a little about knowing the rules and I appreciate forums like this to help educate. Thanks blue! 

[MadMax]

14 hours ago, MSB256 said:

We play USSSA then OBR.

 

11 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Seems to me that a fall ball league, at 10U, is making a huge mistake introducing these kids to open bases.

Here’s your root culprit – USSSA. 

Now, to be fair, it could be any of the nation-spanning Tournament Series (TS) out there on the landscape, but USSSA, in particular, is known to foster a particularly … I’ll choose the word… corrosive brand of baseball. 

You can see evidence in how USSSA treats and structures its events. USSSA will choke the calendar with events. Each event will try to rope in as many teams as possible, and offer these teams a “guarantee” of X number of games in this event. Then, they stratify the teams within age levels (which, in my opinion, is one of the foulest plagues killing the great game) – A, AA, AAA, Elite, Premium, Standard, ad nauseum. The games get underway, and the entire objective is to score as many runs as possible, and to win. Of course, that’s the objective of any game – to win. However, the “how” is emphasized, and that’s the impetus for run (mercy / slaughter / et. al.) rules, and run differential, and the like. Time limits may be abhorrent to Baseball, but that’s the only way these TSs can operate and profit. 

The kids’ individual performance(s) is not the focal point – instead, it’s the collective performance of the team, wholly measured by runs → wins. Wins leads to playing on Sunday / last day, and playing on Sunday / LD → (best chance of) winning a/the trophy, or medal, or banner, or whatever little chotchkie trinket dopamine hit the TS Event dangles out there. The parents get to whoop it up, and get the dopamine hit of their own that all the “practices” and $200 bats, and trips to Dick’s Sporting Goods, and sitting in Starbuck’s drive-thru, and coordinating where grandma & grandpa need to go and which gate to go thru, and getting all the photos on Insta/Face/Tik/X – and getting them Liked! – is all “worth it!” 

Here & Now has completely eclipsed Later & Better. Few care about the developmental process any more. 

[Velho]

2 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Actually said we need to be teaching these kids "real baseball" in TEE-BALL!

Given that vision depth perception isn't fully matured until age 12 this is a fruitless exercise.

Age 12! Think about what depth perception means in playing baseball.

[beerguy55]

17 minutes ago, Velho said:

Given that vision depth perception isn't fully matured until age 12 this is a fruitless exercise.

Age 12! Think about what depth perception means in playing baseball.

And it's closer to 14 for the girls.

[BLarson]

I do a lot of USSSA baseball...that's just the base ruleset we play in Omaha....weekdays, tournaments, fall ball, etc...it's what everyone is used to doing.

Depending upon the age and level of kids, we explain to coaches at the plate meeting that we call "age/level" appropriate balks.   If it affects play, we will obviously call it, otherwise we communicate with the pitcher/coach.  Not stepping and throwing to first or 3rd we will call that...start/stop as well.   Twitches, turning the shoulders slowly, switching from windup to stretch, not pausing (assuming it doesn't affect the play) etc..are all things we are very lenient on.   Even if they do warnings, it's basically the same thing except we are issuing a warning versus a balk the first time per pitcher.

This makes the game go much more smooth 

In my experience...fall baseball needs to have a run limit per inning if you're playing full baseball.  5 runs an inning is plenty.  There's not trophies, medals, or whatever given out at the end of the year.

I also guarantee you at 10u, every runner stealing second is going to be safe regardless what the pitcher does...and probably 99% safe at 3rd.

 

[The Man in Blue]

23 hours ago, MSB256 said:

I think we can shoot for a balance between lenient and fair. If they’ve got 10 balks to our two and we lose, is that fair to my kids?

Much of what I want to address has been addressed, so I will come back to this statement.  
 

If they committed 10 and you committed 2 (or vice versa, whichever way you are presenting that), then yes, it was fair.  Losing is fair.

If they had 10 balks to your 2 and you won, would you be here asking this?

Don't stand there and say you want it “called fair” when what you are really saying is you really want it called to your advantage.

Coach, I didn’t bring this team and put them in over their head. It isn’t my job to bail them out or to placate your bruised ego.